Saturday, March 31, 2018

Belief in Hell by theistic orientation and by religious affiliation

Martin Luther would have thought "anti-christ" too kind a descriptor for the Argentinian vicar. But is it really fair to accuse Francis of being Mephistopheles' man? It's not that he is on the side of the devils, it's just that he's on the side of the Jews and the atheists (hey, quiet you!).

The following table shows the percentages of GSS respondents, by belief in God and also by religious affiliation, who either believe there is "probably not" or "definitely not" a Hell (N = 3,501):

The first three bars are broken out by belief in God

One-quarter of Catholics are already on board with what the pontiff allegedly asserted. Joke's on them, though, as there's already a spot reserved for him next to Nicholas III and Boniface VIII.

GSS variables used: HELL, GOD(1-2)(3-5)(6), RELIG

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

TBF devout Jews don't have our same concepts of the afterlife heaven or hell either.

Your point remains correct.

As far as Francis: He's Pope DeBlasio. Only really a threat locally.
More comedy than tragedy. Example: he's exorcism happy BUT is having unwise flirtation with known atheist even after this 93 year old atheist journalist already played with the truth.

While he's out stirring animist primitivism with all the exorcisms and demon talk.
Now that's to fill the pews with cultural animists [Indians] something he picked up from Latin America. Stops working as soon as they get some education and come to understand the priest is a pink shaded communist [and probably a queer]. Then they walk or become Protestants. Not unlike many here...problem then being personal Jesus is no rock for civilization and repeat...

BTW in exorcisms the 1st step is to eliminate mental or physical illness.
Public pronunciations of Exorcisms appeals to hordes of the mentally ill.

Wrong move for the physically or perhaps * even demonically afflicted.

*I don't know the truth. It's not relevant. Anymore than proving the existence of God is the worldly purpose of religion. No it's not.

Francis will pass. We really need a proven WHITE WHITE WHITE Warrior like either Karol W/JP2 or an Italian aristocrat family that's NOT QUEER like Pacelli [Pius XII]. <<IF we can find one. It's very difficult for a non wop er non-Italian to break in and do it correctly.

The Curia remains the core problem. Bad enough they're dagoes it's unmanageable if they're queers.

vxxc

234567 said...

The issue I have with no hell has always been that for a lot of people, doing away with hell removes any real consequence to a lifetime of selfish, bad and outright evil behavior. Consequence is what sets limits, and without limits on behavior, everything becomes acceptable. I think this is the valuable takeaway from the Sodom & Gomorrah parable.

While the Pope could be an influence on a great many people, upending thousands of years of dogma will cause spiritual chaos within Catholicism. The result of that may be schism or else simply drop the numbers of declared Catholics. This religion is not going to make it (grow) anyway, once the truth of Curia craziness at the Vatican finally permeates to the masses.

Why this man would do this to Catholics is unknowable, but the end result is fairly predictable if one looks at previous religions. When everything is ok or you can just buy absolution - what value does the religion add other than membership in a club?

Glen Filthie said...

Good question, 234567.

I was raised in an atheist proggie/liberal family. The women were...good lord, they were just revolting. But I grew up with it and didn't see it or was trained to ignore it. I dunno how the men managed to live with them - many didn't and ended up divorced. I am seriously surprised how some of those bitter court battles didn't end up with violence and fatalities. In some cases they were seriously warranted. Our boomer parents put themselves and us kids through the meat grinder. It's even worse for our kids - they've mainstreamed homosexuality, drugs, and I suppose the next stop for our social engineers will be legal pedophilia - the first trial balloons have already gone up. My daughter is a militant lesbian social justice warrior. We're estranged and haven't seen each other in years because she thinks that her sexuality gives her the right to tell the rest of us what we can say or think. It would be an understatement to say I have been through the wringer with liberals and their modern family concepts several times.

What do I get out of religion? Well, my chapel out in the country believes in the bible. They believe the bible says what it means, and means what it says. There's a community there too. Those guys have pulled kids off the street, set them up with jobs and homes and literally saved them from drugs and early death. Sometimes they fail. But they never quit, if you reach a hand out, those guys will always step up and reach down to take it. The price for that is membership in the club and paying it forward - you will be expected to do the same when you are solidly on your own feet. For me the faith means sanity and community - and redemption after a difficult life with enlightened, but unhappy and unfulfilled progressive liberals and their lunacy.

It isn't perfect... but I'll take it. If some idiot in the Vatican wants to think that queers and pedos and women have a place in the church I am just peachy with it. What counts to me now is my church, my community and my place on the planet. Anything beyond that is between me and my Maker.

Membership in a club means nothing, and that's what this pope is - a club president of sorts. There's other clubs around, and some are better than others. You have to find yours and run with what the Lord gives you.

Have a good easter boys.

Anonymous said...

"Why this man would do this to Catholics is unknowable."

He's a Jesuit with his eyes on the Northern Hemisphere.

He's from the Southern Hemisphere.

There's a reason we come for them in the night.
However you Protestants with your notions of the Rule of Law-that is fatal to ORDER.

VXXC

Jonathan Centauri said...

There is the Church of Rome and Christ and not much in between. The Roman Church was basically just a Temple that rented space to anyone who wanted a space to worship. Its Motel Spiritualism.
Charlemagne FORCED conversion on them when he assumed the title of Caesar. He is regarded as the First Holy Roman Emperor. Napoleon Bonaparte was the Last Holy Roman Emperor. At least for NOW.
Everyone knows priests and nuns are NOT "celibate". Celibate just means NOT MARRIED though some expect it to mean NOT HAVE SEX. Homosexuality runs rampant in monasteries and the priests and nuns only avoid heterosexuality.
Nuns are NOT CHASTE AT ALL. They are "fallen women" who men WILL NOT MARRY. "Get thee to a nunnery" is a slur. Its like calling a woman a WHORE.
The Roman Catholics will worship anything that pays the rent. Try finding, "Be all things to all people", in The Holy Bible. The Whore of Babylon is the Roman Church. This Jesuit is the Anti-Pope that has assumed the Throne of Peter. The Black Pope. The Pope of the nWo. He will anoint the ANTICHRIST.

Audacious Epigone said...

Will Catholicism go away, or will it morph into Latin American liberation theology? It is moribund in the West, but it may not be headed for global extinction. Demographics are destiny and there are still some segments of Catholics who breed (unlike mainline Protestant denominations, which are in the process of going extinct).

Glen,

Out of curiosity, what's your church's denomination?

Jig Bohnson said...

There is no concept of Hell within mainstream Judaism so I'm surprised that the Jewish line isn't 100%.

Anonymous said...

I doubt the Church will go away, it has faced far worse crises. Sadly for some commenters here...

That said, if not a schism, then definitely a crisis of some sort will happen. Whether cultural, or institutional - I gamble on the latter, as the Curia is really the worst part of the Church. While the cultural thing, it's not as bad as the Bibleists with a fixation on the whore of Babylon say. The Pope has only gone left on immigration, other than that the small but loud issue of divorced and remarried taking communion (they either already do, or not care). Other than that, Obamaesque rhetoric aside (ex canonization of red-friendly Archbishop Romero, or this twisted-around-by-media comment about hell), he hasn't moved the Church much.

That said, if Francis continues on this vein, it might be too much - but again, remains to be seen, as even in Latin America or the Third World really it's not as if the pews are full of woke people, quite the contrary. Unrepentant gays and abortionists are still going to hell in the pages of the Cathechism. We shall see if this changes; I wager that the Church might remain conservative enough (too many current donors are, and not enough atheists are being stopped by Francis's openings), but I'd also wager it will be less white-friendly due to pure demographics, and at the very least, less capitalistic and easier to forgive. I don't discount some liberalism creeping in; it's only natural, the Church is as big as all other denominations combined, and it's therefore a big-tent organization statistically prone to have more mistaken people in its rolls. Compare to all the degrees of variance between liberal Unitarians/Methodists, and the most fundamentalist born againers - each Protestant church caters to a different market, the Church by being universalist instead has to have some widely accepted values.

The key then is determining which values - a return to some pre-Vatican 2 ones can be good (for example, lessening the focus on globalism and leftism), but the Latin Mass is not making a comeback (do hope some chants and rites do at least). In short, the Church is centrist and anything else is not to be expected, but has to stop leaning too left as has done lately.

Furthermore, you could make the same old arguments about Catholicism being too ritualistic/innovative (which explains the lightly agnostic baptized who don't believe in hell, those probably go to church once a year at most), too globalist (tho once upon a time it was thanks to Catholic theology and saints like Joan of Arc that Catholicism was born), too full of virgins and pedos - but all of that can be fixed. And no, not necessarily making it all more Protestant - for example, switching to vernacular was nice, but the Mass became boring, less musical, and Lutheran. Plus, like another poster said, Protestantism is all about personal Jesus and knowing quotes by heart and being born again and again. My brain would rather have access to Augustine and Aquinas and Leo X as well (and maybe even Maurras and Bannon - Catholics can be nationalistic, just have to be the right kind of Catholics heh). But hey, we all have our way to worship, even the heathens (which are really only materialists, humanists, or pantheists)

Anonymous said...

In the last paragraph, meant to say "it is thanks to Catholic theology and several national saints like Joan of Arc that current European nations were born".

Jonathan Centauri said...

The Roman Church has gone South in more ways than one. The dark races worship Christ in a way not dissimilar from Damballah Wedo. All that dancing and singing might as well be animism and spirits of the dead. The Roman Church has always wanted what is Caesar's more than what is God's. The tithe means 10%, but now its 15%. What does God need with money?
I suppose pederasty and bribery costs a pretty penny. All those "Vows of Poverty", and all that EASY LIVING with big houses and maid service. Big Temples and Empty Pews. The Cost of putting Faith in Fallen Man.

Amateur Brain Surgeon said...

But hey, we all have our way to worship

True, but the Catholics who worship our Triune God worship Him the way Jesus Christ taught them to worship Him.

Others just make it up as they go along....

Those imagining (hoping) the Catholic Church Jesus established will disappear will be as disappointed as were the Jews whose hired guards at the tomb could not prevent The Resurrection

Said otherwise, the Church is recapitulating the passion and death of its Divine Founder and it will rise suddenly in a magnificent and unexpected Resurrection which will make clear to all that Jesus is, has always been, and always will be the head of His Church which He promised would not be defeated by the gates of Hell (or the Gates of Washington State)

If you do think the Church will ceae to exist you are forced by logic to conclude the promises of Jesus Christ are unreliable.

Good luck explaining that idea as you stand before His Judgment Seat.