Friday, May 11, 2012

Let's be butt buddies until we get to know each other better

Roissy calls me out, and because I'm always game, I'll pick the gauntlet up and gently tap him with it. In a post where he ruminates on the reasons why educated women are far more likely to remain virgins than uneducated women are, he writes:
How do girls rationalize their lying about their sex lives? By inventing false truths. Anal and oral sex among young women are way up, but hey, it’s not the vagina, so STILL A VIRGIN. The hamster is happy. Perhaps this explains better why educated women have higher “virginity” rates — they are using a very loose definition of virginity. And wouldn’t it be just like a smartie to wordplay her way out of an uncomfortable self-assessment? I suspect the Audacious One would be interested in GSSing his way through this byline to the sexual behavior annals. Annals. Heh.
The GSS doesn't penetrate the subject deeply enough to address the issue at hand, though in newer questions regarding sexual activity, it does specify "by 'sex' we mean vaginal, oral, or anal sex". The variable I've previously employed (and see Jason Malloy presaging Charles Murray's Coming Apart a couple of years before it was written in the comments) extends back into the late eighties, however, and the GSS has left the question unaltered since it's introduction, which is good for consistency but bad for satisfying our chateau owner.

In the link offered, Roissy provides a hypothetical example:
Well, there was Tommy, but he only did me in the ass, so that doesn’t count. Then there was Trent, but I only gave him blowjobs. I told him that I wanted to save myself for marriage. Then the asshole left me! And there was Brian, but except for a few BJs and a tug job behind the 7-11, I never gave it up to him. And…. let’s see, who else… oh yeah, Joe, Chris, some guy who called himself the Dude, Adam, Hoight, Anfernee… mostly anal, some mouth love. But I didn’t give my virginity to any of them. Yay me! So… I didn’t have sex with any men.
This appears to be the exception, not the rule. Roissy will recall excerpting William Saletan later on at said link:
Only 6 percent of women who had anal sex in their last encounter did so in isolation. Eighty-six percent also had vaginal sex. Seventy-two percent also received oral sex. Thirty-one percent also had partnered masturbation.
I'm stringing together different chains of Roissy's thought here and presenting them as if they're meant to be sequiturs, which, if my purpose was polemical (it's not), would be unfair.

Anyway, a handy table from a comprehensive sexual survey out of the Indiana University shows that past the age of 15, vaginal intercourse is the most commonly engaged in sexual activity (besides solo masturbation) for men and women of all subsequent age groups, ahead of oral and anal. So, at least according to self-reported survey data, there aren't many women out there giving head and being buggered who aren't also having their villages pillaged (and thus presumably not being counted as virgins).

More of the 'experimental' stuff, but mostly confined to the people who are already doing the traditional stuff, too. It's complementary more than it's substitutional. As social stigmas on various forms of foreplay crumble away--and this seems particularly descriptive in the case of anal sex (if this can be considered foreplay), which until as recently as 2003 was illegal in fourteen states--it's not surprising that "front or back?" is joining "missionary or rider?" in the list of questions lovers pose to one another ahead of getting busy.


Anonymous said...


As there are more educated female Asians, and they are more likely to be virgins, then it seems plausible.

Peter said...

The GSS doesn't penetrate the subject deeply enough


JayMan said...

Did Roissy demonstrate a trend in virginity rates? I don't see anything longitudinal. As for the explanation, Jason Malloy gave us one a while ago.

pat said...

I don't want to be pedantic but oral sex and anal sex are simply not sex. They are sexual foreplay.

Sex is a biological strategy for reproduction - as opposed to budding or fission. In humans it is accomplished with what you are calling vaginal sex. Or what I would call just plain sex.

Similarly there is no such thing as homosexual sex, only homosexual sex-like play.

Evolution has made all manner of activities surrounding the sex act to be rewarding. The most obvious being orgasm. Because of the long period of the infant's helplessness nature needs the parents to stay together. Most sex acts don't result reproduction but normal marital sex is there to create a bond - and that is part of reproduction.

In primates sex is interwoven with dominance. Males dominate females and she views this dominance through a sexual prism. Anal and oral sex are dominance activities. Women seldom orgasm from them, yet women enjoy them because they affirm the social order.

Consider a slightly more adventuresome activity - urine drinking. No one orgasms from drinking pee. But when a man orders his woman to drink his pee, she does so as part of a sexual relationship. Ultimately she likes it because she is set up to experience sexual fulfillment through submission.

Obviously this isn't fun for all women. But women like their man to be "in charge". There are right now thousands of ads on the Net by women looking for a man to spank them, whip them or give them anal sex. This is not an insignificant slice of the population. These alarming practices are much more common than homosexuality.

Homosexuality is a disease that affects around 3% of the population. That's too much for it to be genetic and too little for it to be directly infectious. Male dominance and female submission are the part of all normal people but the level of its expression varies. The public sees only the extremes where some wacky guy brands his girl friend. But maybe one third of all married couples enjoy sexual spanking.

Anal and oral sex are dominance activities in that the sexual charge is through dominance not orgasm (at least for the woman). As people overcome the BDSM taboos we can expect higher incidences yet.


Audacious Epigone said...


Among women under 40, Asians make up a little less than 15% of the post-graduates (according to the GSS). That's about three times higher than would be predicted by numbers alone, but it's not enough to fully explain a virginity rate 5x higher among educated women than among uneducated ones.

Peter said...

Are Asian female college students more likely to be virgins than their non-Asian counterparts? I've not seen any statistics on the issue, and for a couple of reasons I'm very skeptical.

Reason one: Young Asian women tend to be cute, and often are sexually appealing to men (of all races).

Reason two: Many of the young women who avoid sex are Christians who don't believe in premarital sex. Asians are less likely to be Christians than other races.

Audacious Epigone said...


Interesting question. GSS sample sizes are too small.

Anonymous said...

I don't want to be pedantic but oral sex and anal sex are simply not sex. They are sexual foreplay.

Sex is a biological strategy for reproduction - as opposed to budding or fission. In humans it is accomplished with what you are calling vaginal sex.

Then let me be pedantic and point out that using your definitions, having vaginal sex with a condom or while using "the pill" would also not count as being real sex but is merely "sexual foreplay".

Anonymous said...

There are right now thousands of ads on the Net by women looking for a man to spank them, whip them or give them anal sex.


This is not an insignificant slice of the population.

Ha, ha. I take it you don't work with math much.

Seriously though, sexual foreplay - of which spanking is a common part - is a precursor to sex. Not always to fertile sex, due to the widespread availability of birth control. But sex all the same. I'm sure the highly fertile Americans of yesteryear were just as much into sexual foreplay as we are. The difference in fertility between then and now has nothing to do the amount of penis-in-vagina sex taking place.

as said...

Roissy's assertion about anal sex doesn't make sense to me. He's libertine, so he might not understand that anal sex is very extreme. It just doesn't make sense that a girl would engage in anal sex but not vaginal sex.

pat said...

Anonymous said:
Ha, ha. I take it you don't work with math much..

That's not a syllogism. I guess you don't work with logic much.

Let me try again. Homosexuality is accepted to be around 3% of the population. That magnitude is significant. It's much to large for gayness to be genetic in the sense of a point mutation. It is also too small to be a normal infection and there is no evidence of it being "catching". Parents worry about their sons catching homosexuality somehow from child molesters. But this doesn't happen.

Dominance-submission is much more frequent than homosexuality, although there are no generally agreed on figures. D/s is still taboo as homosexuality once was. There are very few researchers.

The point about thousands of ads was that these are just the rather extreme ads. A large plurality of dating ads on vanilla sites have hints that the woman is looking for a "take charge" who will assert himself in the bedroom. There are millions of these circumspect ads and thousands where there can be no doubt as to what the woman wants.

This would be what you would expect if there was an underlying distribution of expression. We can only look at the tails and guess at the central tendency and variance.

The BDSM dating sites probably only appeal to less than half of all women - maybe much, much less. Even so there are several such sites with well over a million ads. Gay dating sites have far fewer members.

D/s is probably a part of all normal human sex but its expression varies tremendously. Many modern people repress this dimension altogether. Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew is a D/s play and it's a mainstream work. It is not an outlier.

All of this is denied of course by the modern feminist movement. But I presume that this person called Roissy understands it well enough.


Anonymous said...

"Thousands of people" are in fact "an insignificant slice of the population". No amount of snotty attitude on your part can alter that fact.

Though I see you have now revised your "thousands of ads" to "millions of ads".

D/s is probably a part of all normal human sex but its expression varies tremendously.

You consider this to be an "alarming practice" because it does not lead directly to procreative sex. You miss the fact that the reason it does not lead to procreative sex is because of birth control, and not because a woman who likes her man to spank her as foreplay fails to follow this up with regular penis-in-the-vagina sex.

Anonymous said...

Anal is not a form of dominance. It's pretty much forbidden in most patriarchal religions. Anal is degenerate, sterile and disgusting. Dominance is reproductive, not recreative. The only people who do anal are feminists in BDSM. There are a lot of feminists in BDSM and since they find vaginal-penis to be a form of rape they do "sexual activities" that don't involve it.