Saturday, September 08, 2018

Did Charlottesville kill the alt right?

No. The ideas and sentiments driving it live on, perhaps--as Swedes go to the polls to possibly make the Sweden Democrats the country's largest party--stronger than ever before. But the term itself may have been a casualty. The following graph shows internet search engine interest for "alt right" since January of 2016:

Parenthetically, I realize the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, VA in 2016 was the second such event, not the first, but it is the only such event associated with the phrase "Unite the Right" generally recognizable among the public today, and that will be even more strongly the case in the future.


Dealg said...

The Unite the Right was a failure because it was FAR too extreme and premature. You had people with tiki torches, the occasional swastika, lots of weapons and a leftist counter-protester died. It was the worst move that the alt-right could do, from a PR standpoint.

The Post-Modern liberal left didn't immediately start with "white males are evil and need to die". They "boiled the frog" over years, even decades, and they started with a positive, hopeful message about a future utopia without needless divisions and bickering, without need or poverty, where everyone could be everything they wanted to and people from all groups would live in peace.

This is a VERY attractive fantasy. It's basically Heaven on Earth. Of course it's impossible, but most people don't take time to understand exactly why. Studies on genetic differences between groups of humans are taboo. The "Star Trek future" is instead promoted as possible, even if remote.

The anti-white stuff has come out LATER, as a RESPONSE to the fact that the egalitarian utopia hasn't become real yet. The liberal Utopian needed a scapegoat, just like communist Utopians.

So you can see WHY the liberals/postmodern leftists are so popular. They're not just hating on white people, they're hating on white people because they're convinced that white people are keeping everyone else behind.

This is why even many "normies" don't consider the po-mo left insane. Most "normies" think that they might be extreme, but they're fighting for Something Good, for the egalitarian paradise of peace and friendship.

Consider instead the rally in Charlottesville. What do the "normies" see? A bunch of people with torches and some Nazi signs, one of whom caused the death of a counter-protester. That's not very convincing, or inspiring, to say the least.

The alt-right has to take a GRADUAL approach. Our message is that the egalitarian paradise of peace and friendship isn't just far away in the future, it's simply impossible. We need to make this message accepted in order to get the "normies" on our side.

The alt-right works at its best when it keeps its message simple and practical. We need to simply say that the Liberal Utopia is not here, and instead by letting floods of immigrants in we're bringing in division, crime, worse standards of living, violent cultures, etc.

People WILL listen to that, especially when the po-mo left completely denies any problem with immigration from the Third World.

Our strength is the truth, especially when the truth denied by the po-mo leftists. An article about the high crime rates, violence and social degradation caused by immigrants, or a Facebook group which reports the damage of immigration, are worth thousands of tiki torch marches.

Dealg said...

Indeed Ryan Faulk pointed out the problems with Richard Spencer and the "United the Right" rallies far better than I did in this video:

Anonymous said...

I think the big loss was that Charlottesville confirmed all the stereotypes of the alt-right just being a rebrand of libertarian something awful or /pol/ users. So the name stuck and became associated with the alt-lite and 4chan.

Random Dude on the Internet said...

I think it has been a success so far. In 2015, the only way you get to hear these opinions was on The Right Stuff. In 2018, it is regularly talked about on Ann Coulter and Tucker Carlson, each with millions of followers on social media and for Tucker, one of the most popular news shows in America. That is an impressive growth model.

A few people seemingly are of the opinion that if a movement doesn't achieve 100% victory then it is a total loss. The alt right is more about ideas than figureheads and has always been that way, despite attempts to co-opt it by the likes of Richard Spencer or Mike Cernovich. It needs to be nameless and faceless, so long as the ideas transform politics and political discourse, which is doing and doing well. With the rise of nationalists winning primary elections, we are now getting into the phase where the alt right is doing their own march through the institutions. The only question is if they are able to make a difference before it is too late.

Hippie Speedball said...

Inviting the right to a hostile environment showed about as much situational awareness as was on display when Richard Spencer got himself punched in the face. The timing was very, very bad. The actual Nazis had years of organizing and street fighting under their collective belt before the big rallies.

Spencer should have focused on building out Radix and his more lowbrow site.

We are clearly pushing our thinking forward and impacting culture, as other commenters have observed. The ideas are so good they have to censor them furiously.

There is still a lot of work to do, and making your followers targets isn't part of that.

Dealg said...

The best way to influence politics about immigration depends on where you live. In Europe islam is the most "visible" concern, especially in countries where political correctness tries to suppress news about the damage it causes. Pointing out crimes by African immigrants helps.

In the US the biggest concern is about Latino gang bangers and, again, Muslims (although muslims are less of problem in the US, numerically speaking).

The alt-right gains power when people start to be fed up with the propaganda about immigrants being awesome and/or pure saints and are exposed to the true stats about immigration and crime, immigration and rent hikes, immigration and violence, immigration and lower wages.

In Italy, for example, the current administration is at least alt-right friendly. Salvini, the unofficial leader of the Italian government, is trying to put a stop to immigrant landings, has made it a crime for NGOs to ferry immigrants across the Mediterranean Sea, and has promised to expel illegals. That's a good start, and it was achieved without rallies to "unite the Italian right".

Doing rallies is counterproductive. The media are going to make you look like a thug, the leftists are going to attack you and be lionized as heroes, and if you react to leftist attacks everyone will scream that you're a Nazi.

It's far better to spread alt-right messages on social media and work with right-wing parties to make them more popular. In the US this means working within the GOP to support Trump and other nativist politicians like Kris Kobach or Ron deSantis, get out the vote, and limit the "blue wave".

Joe Suber said...

@Dealg: Spencer gave a pretty thorough BTFO to that argument in the first half of this "debate":

Random Dude on the Internet said...

> That's a good start, and it was achieved without rallies to "unite the Italian right".

That is not true. Italians love a good riot, it's just many of them don't get reported on over here in the US. They've been doing a lot of rioting in recent years due to the immivasion. Here's a high profile example but there are several others:

Then there's this:

This is one of the problems with the post-mortems I've seen on the alt right: many of them leave out large chunks of progress because Richard Spencer got punched in the face. Time to give up on the idea that "our side" will win 100% of the battles and make exponential progress all of the time. The movement is getting smarter and more subversive, it isn't going away.

216 said...


Disagree wrt to Latino gangbangers over Muslims. The leading concern in the US has always been blacks. There would not have been an alt-Right, nor a Trump, without the chaos unleashed by Black Lives Matter 2012-16. BLM caused numerous riots, shot and killed at least 9 cops, was foolishly supported by President Obama even when the notoriously anti-white AG Eric Holder had conducted investigations that proved the BLM narrative wrong.

From this angle, the most successful alt-Righter (pre-Heilgate definition) is neither, Cernovich, Bannon, Milo or Spencer. Rather, it is Tomi Lahren. There's a reason the left calls her the "Nazi Barbie". An attractive white woman gave people a permission slip via her rants to think previously forbidden thoughts. And she was successful, Black Lives Matter has disappeared as a protest movement and was replaced by the "Womens March", a return to the left's successful 2012 strategy of "war on women".

Albionic American said...

Perhaps the white nationalist firebrands have learned an obvious lesson: They need to prepare for the coming struggle by living frugally, getting out of debt and saving up enough cash in an F-U Fund for at least a year's living expenses. That way they can protect themselves financially in case their activism leads to doxxing and job loss.

White nationalists talk a good game about white men's higher intelligence, low time preference, powers of agency and so forth. They need to demonstrate these abilities to show their adversaries that the idea of white nationalism has started to attract quality white men.

IHTG said...

The leading concern in the US is of course white liberals.

You have a burden that European nationalists like Salvini don't, and that is the nation of immigrants mythology. The most important thing an American nationalist can do is gore the ox of immigration. Not illegal immigration or non-white immigration, but immigration as a concept.

Tucker Carlson has begun to do good work here. If you miss the "doing stuff on the Internet" era of the alt-right, then sharing his segments on Facebook and defending them against critics is a good place to start.

Passer by said...

Right now the "far right" is rising in continental Europe and not so much in anglo countries.

Probably because they get worse migrants (mostly muslim) than the anglo countries.

Btw AE here is an intersting article on the demographic situation of whites in the various countries around the world, you can make an article about it.

216 said...

Anglo countries are highly individualistic, compared to the more collectivist cultures of Continental Europe. The common law system also creates problem as it allows judges to create "rights" out of thin air, the laws on the Continent banning the veil and ritual slaughter will never survive an Anglo courtroom. Even Israel has this problem because they inherited UK common law and the older Ottoman millet laws.

The UK has received lots of troublesome Afro-Caribbeans and Pakistanis. Australia has received Sudanese and other Muslims. A key difference in Anglo vs Continental culture is our greater tolerance of what the French call "communitarisme", or subcultures. Something like the Amish or Mennonites would be unthinkable on the Continent, and indeed their ancestors left the Continent for that reason. The continent has had serious proposals to literally change the Koran used in mosques, and force services to be conducted in the local language rather than Arabic.

Anglo national identities are also more compatible with liberalism, as we were on the "winning" side of the World Wars. In France they routinely accuse the LePen family of Vichy sympathies, in Spain the right openly favors Franco, in Germany waving the national flag is an edgy act. Here we get deluded responses from the left that "Kapernick is the real patriot", in Canada right-wing views are associated with separatism rather than nationalism ("muh constitution" is impossible when the Charter is the work of Trudeau Sr)

216 said...


White liberals are seemingly always going to be one-third of the electorate, elections demonstrate this pattern in several countries. Conservatives, due to the nature of democracy, seem to have a lower floor, possibly one-fourth or one-fifth. Authoritarian systems might be able to manipulate these numbers, but it seems temporary at best.

I certainly favor a policy of no net immigration, but plenty of our people have these illusions of more white immigrants, even though no white country has a TFR above replacement. Nor is there a possibility of 4 million South African whites coming here, and most of them are suburban liberals not race realist Boer farmers.

To really gore the ox of immigration, it seems we would need an Amerind "shield", or conceal/change some of our views behind environmentalism.

SJ said...

Don't be foolish unite the right was a false flag. Everyone who organized it is now a non person, often becoming so in hilariously stupid troll ways. The actual local on the ground reporters reported that the protestors for both sides were bussed in together, before that was memory holed. I just tried to find said reports but now they are buried under the false history narrative. I mean come on unite the right was fake as crap. The organiser was an Obama era community organizer and agitator and all the "Nazis" along with the entire traditional workers party were feds and splc plants.


Passer by said...


Continental Europe gets lower IQ migrants than Canada, Britain, New Zealand and Australia. (PIAAC/PISA research)

chedolf said...

Dealg said... You had...the occasional swastika...

There was exactly 1 guy at Charlottesville carrying a swastika. His flag had sharp fold-creases, like he'd just bought it.

There's video of the same guy at another "save the statue" rally a month or two earlier. He very conspicuously flashes the "OK" sign at leftists, like he's following an SPLC "how to pose as alt-right" script.

False flag or retard? (Probably both.)

IHTG said...

As I was saying:

Hippie Speedball said...

216 is very right about latino invaders looking like the lesser of two evils by comparison to blacks.

I moved to Denver in 1995 from the south/midwest, and the only real contact I had with beaners before then was the occasional reference to one in a textbook word problem. It was weird, but it wasn't super alarming because they took all the jobs white people thought they were too good for, and they actually performed them.

I later moved to Kansas City, which is way more black than Denver. The crime rate seemed absolutely insane by comparison to Denver, despite the fact it's a smaller city.

I had already been redpilled by the fact my college professors were all still proud communists after the wall that ideology had used to pen in their subjects had been pulled down. But even looking at reality through that filter, the difference between Denver and KC was shocking.

Even now, there is a massive shortage of construction and home services jobs. Despite the fact the wages are kept low by illegals, small businessmen with trade skills can make a killing. But white kids are all told they need to go to college, so they don't want to compete for those jobs.

So we are where we are. In many ways I think the goal of immivasion in the US is to replace the blacks, and white displacement is something of a side effect.

The Democrats have been banking on latino votes, but they never come through in the kind of numbers they expect. Even in CA it's mostly driven by rich coasties, not beaners.

The black homicide rate is climbing again, and hopefully the left keeps that trend alive.

I agree we can't expect to win 'em all, but right now we can't win anything in public. All that said, this was a lonely place to be in the 1990s, and I still can't believe the memes and the messaging I'm seeing from younger kids. My generation wasn't interested AT ALL.

Sweden's vote today wasn't what any of us had hoped for, but it's a step in the right direction. Among others.

FWIW things are changing. Get rich. Start a family.

Even the coming surveillance benefits us. Look at cell phone video of incidents the media tries to hush up and tell me that's not why cities are getting even more segregated. In the short run, we get deplatformed. In the long run, everyone sees what we see.

216 said...

Hot take on the Sweden results:

The polls got it right, SD didn't overperform in the results, the "shy tory factor" was accounted for.

Trump is actually a wet blanket on Euro nationalist parties, floating centrist voters no longer see these parties as anti-American. The KD party was running as "SD Lite", and staved off annihilation.

SD has significantly moderated their stances, to only minor gains. They had several scandals drop on them in the closing weeks of the campaign, and they were hit with the "Russian bots" allegation which goes down credulously in high-trust Sweden.

Certain people will never be amenable to the nationalist cause until society has reached Mad Max levels of violence. Occasional terror attacks and rioting is not the Intifada.

216 said...

An example of the "Russian bots" claims.

Euro-nats are in a tough position having to lie about how they aren't pro-Trump(they are) and how they aren't pro-Russia (most are). The salience of anti-Americanism and anti-Russia attitudes should not be discounted in explaining the results.

Uncle Max said...

SJ is right about Charlottesville. It was a sham from the git-go. The organizers were Occupy folks. They purposely went out of their way to "act" in ways to give the press awesome "scary " pictures. The Tiki torch march the night before? OMG... I can't think of anything more provocative and pathetic at the same time.

Most all of those folks were brought in from other places.. then the Mayor, the Governor and the police agencies set it all up for a spectacular display. AND it worked perfectly... even an unintended, but helpful dead girl.

That was agit-prop. I dont' believe in false flags... but that weekend was a set-up to knee-cap the "alt-right" and shoehorn the movement into a box. Just like the GOPe worked with the Democrats and the media to snuff out the Tea Party.

IHTG said...

Was anybody seriously expecting Sweden, the heart of the poz in Europe's soul, to flip to populism overnight? The pillars have been shaken, as in the German election last year. We'll see where things go from here.

216 said...


Some polling was indicating that SD could come in first with 22-25% of the vote, but they took a dive in the polls in the final weeks before the election. The scandals seem to revolve around the NRM neo-Nazi movement engaging in entryism within SD, that movement had its own Charlottesville in Gothenburg some time ago. SD also had a splinter party, AFS, leave over the SD leadership cucking on NATO membership. AFS was hit with the "Russian bots" allegations, and it doesn't look like they will even hit 3%. Hopefully they can come back by the EU parliament elections next year.

Its not the worst result as the socialists will be back in government despite being unpopular, given the likelihood of a recession hitting in the next four years it means that SD could emerge even stronger, perhaps Akesson should resign as party leader. The government will also be shifting leftward, presuming the Communist Party enters the Cabinet. That will probably backfire.

A first place finish by SD would have been huge, probably boosting the GOP in the midterms, and maybe even shifting Upper Midwest Americans of Swedish descent into the GOP column.

IHTG said...


Audacious Epigone said...


It was a hard reality check. Even a movement with a lot of popular support--and the alt right hardly had that--either needs the protection of the state or a full logistical apparatus, including private security, that wasn't present. Sheep led to the slaughter. Had their not been a death, though, it wouldn't have anything like the infamy it's now stuck with.

Agree wrt to Trump Republicans. They don't have a lot of money or establishment support, but they can still win. And they have to.

Random Dude,

In some ways we need those guys out front--and in Spencer's case, he has a legitimate claim to the alt right label since he popularized it a decade ago--to allow a more 'moderate' identitarianism to move in behind it.

Meanwhile, the left's strategy of calling everyone to the left of Bob Dole a racist/white supremacist has almost exhausted itself.

Hippie Speedball,

Lessons have been learned. The second UTR was a shell of itself and actually did us some good, very obviously vindicating Trump's 'controversial' assertion that there were bad people on both sides.

Random Dude,

I may have asked you previously, but if you have a handle on Gab or Twitter, would you mind contacting me through one of them?


Generally yes, though more so in your zip code than in the country as a whole. That's not the case in Arizona, for instance.

Timid race realists both anti- and pro-immigration use Hispanics vis a vis blacks--the former as a group that it is more acceptable to oppose (especially the illegal ones) and the latter because they think Juan is a better, more docile servant than Julius is (never mind that bringing in Juan doesn't make Julius disappear, it just drives him deeper into the netherworld that is the black underclass).

Albionic American,

Amen. Start locally, as locally as the individual level. Sort that out, and then move outward from there.


I've talked to Kessler in person. He has the zeal of a new convert. Richard Spencer, on the other hand, has been around for two decades, part of the alt right before there was an alt right. There may have been some infiltration, but it wasn't a false flag.

216 said...


Part of the problem we have with the Brown Gevaar is that border state violence has never matched the levels of MEX, ELS, GUA and HON. Our message is always dumbed down to "Mad Max" and then when it doesn't happen we get attacked as liars. 8 years ago we could point out California as a fiscal wreck, but that's no longer true (for now). And for the coastal California elite, mass immigration didn't drive blacks further into the underclass, it drove them into lower cost of living states.

I disagree about Hispanics being "easier to oppose" than blacks. While one is able to be against illegals, at least from the standpoint of stopping further entry, there's a strong desire for them to "earn citizenship". And given that they vote GOP at rate 15 points higher than blacks, the GOP pols are worried about offending them. By contrast the GOP "tough on crime" policies have been furiously opposed by blacks, but I've only heard of leftists saying "being a victim of crime is the price of racial justice".

Random Dude on the Internet said...

AE, unfortunately I am not on Twitter or Gab. I occasionally make a post over at The Z Man's blog and I used to have a TRS 504um account that I deleted a few months ago. I'm pretty busy with my work and personal life to have an active social media life as well.

Anonymous said...

It will be interesting to see the NRM and AfS's vote share. I suspect that if the AfS hit ~2%, that's why the SD didn't hit their projected amount.

The SD has moderated too much anyways, I'd sooner see the AFS take control.

Feryl said...


"I've talked to Kessler in person. He has the zeal of a new convert. Richard Spencer, on the other hand, has been around for two decades, part of the alt right before there was an alt right. There may have been some infiltration, but it wasn't a false flag."

C'mon, Spencer is the heir to David Duke. Go-to Nazis that the media always has on speed dial. The government and media use these clowns to discredit social conservatism/populism. And Duke and Spencer I paid well to co-operate, and are likely blackmailed too. Why does Jared Taylor and Steve Sailer get very little media exposure? These guys aren't bought, that's why. Taylor lives modestly in Virginia, while Spencer followed Ted Kaczynski. Sailer of course is the most brilliant populist conservative to emerge from the 90's and 2000's. He doesn't bother with Nazi crap, and is funny and charming, so the media acts as if Sailer doesn't exist. Sailer also bitterly criticizes neo-liberal excesses that have little to nothing to do with race, and if there's one thing the media suppresses as much as race realism it's discussing the corruption of capitalism since the late 80's.

Tell these (useful) Nazi idiots to get bent.

I understand too that the German neo-Nazi movement has been 80-90% astroturfed since it emerged in the late 70's. The government operates a neo-Nazi movement so as to monitor the handful of morons who sincerely wish to start or join a Nazi outfit. If they go too far, they get arrested.

Typically, since the 80's, the MO of Western governments is to bust genuine Nazi rebels on weapons charges. The ones who remain free, if they gain any stature, are often bought off, if they weren't gov. agents to begin with. Remember also the Ukranian coup that involved "Nazis" funded by the West?

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