Thursday, May 10, 2018

Oy vey, the edge slips away

A recurring observation in the discussion based on IQ estimates for American Jews (among others) in the GSS was that the chosen ones, to quote Sid "come across as above average in intelligence today, but not terrifyingly brilliant the way they did 100 years ago".

The commenters here are invaluable. The following graph shows the IQ advantage Jews enjoy over non-Hispanic white gentiles by decade when the surveys were conducted. To avoid language confounding, responses are restricted to those born in the US. IQ estimates are based on Wordsum scores with a mean white gentile of 100 and a standard deviation of 15 (N = 9,599):

The most obvious reason for this move towards convergence is out-marriage. The overall intermarriage rate for Jews in the US is 58%. It's an astounding 71% among non-Orthodox Jews. With fertility below replacement, most Jews marrying non-Jews, and little Jewish immigration into the US, the 2% is on its way to becoming the 1% is on its way to becoming the 0.X%.

Here are the converted IQ estimates for Jews and white gentiles that were used to construct the preceding table:


GSS variables used: WORDSUM, BORN(1), ETHNIC(2,6-11,13-15,18,19,21,23-27,36), RELIG(1-2,4-13)(3), YEAR(1980-1989)(1990-1999)(2000-2009)(2010-2016)


chris said...

What does "Jew" mean though?

If it is purely religious, then secular Jews would not be included and they would probably come from the upper range of the Jewish IQ distribution.

Or does Jew mean Ashkenazi in this survey and hence is inclusive of religiously observant and secular Jews?

snorlax said...

Chris -

The General Social Survey doesn't ask about Jewish ethnicity, only religion, so some Jews (who identified as agnostic or atheist) are included in "white gentiles" here. However, AE's shown, based on other questions in the survey (belief in God, religious service attendance, etc) that it looks like the vast majority of secular Jews identify as Jews and not agnostic/atheist on the religion question.

I suspect also that part of the trend discussed here is a disappearance or reversal of the edge secular Jews (may have) had over religious ones.

Anonymous said...

AE- the gdp of Israel that you quoted from the CIA is PPP (purchasing power) and not actual GDP per capita. Israeli prices, particularly real estate, is very high which brings down purchasing power considerably. Actual GDP per capita is higher than France Uk and Japan.

Keep in mind israel is just starting to get going. South Korea Became me a nation the same time as Israel. They didn’t need to import an entire people, reboot a dead language, start a national infrastructure almost from scratch, and they only had to fight one war (and that one America literally fought for them).

Desdichado said...

The other obvious reason is probable sampling error in earlier studies, which were almost always done at select private schools rather than true statistically meaningful sampling of the total population.

snorlax said...

Anonymous -

Another factor retarding Israel's economy is the Muslim embargo of the country; the US economy never fully recovered from the 7-month '73-4 oil embargo, and Israel's been embargoed for 70 years.

Desdichado -

All these numbers are from the General Social Survey, which, if it isn't a statistically meaningful sample, nothing is.

Dan said...

'the chosen ones, to quote Sid "come across as above average in intelligence today, but not terrifyingly brilliant the way they did 100 years ago".'

Jewish leadership in the golden age of physics of about 1900 to 1940 or was extraordinary and certainly much greater than today. We are not in a scientific golden age today. In physics, decades have been wasted on string theory which is just math games that predicts nothing. In the social sciences, nothing is allowed into the canon of established knowledge unless it is empirically false.

The bright spot in science today is probably DNA but progress there is hindered by a desperation to know as little as possible that might be uncomfortable.

DissidentRight said...

Well, the good news of miscegenation is that we're all the Chosen People now.

Feryl said...


History will record that the Western Generations born in the late 19th and early 20th century did great things, which the generations born in the mid-late 20th century then took for granted, squandered, as they became ashamed of Western civilization and stopped guarding it.

It's the opposite with the East, who were battered by communism when the generations who gave us Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. ruled. These countries now almost uniformly believe in Making China, Russia, Poland, Korea etc. Great Again. They already went through their period of bat-shit crazy post-Modern Leftism, and are anxious to keep it behind them.

The interesting thing about the West is that PC became noticeably worse, and the corporate and academic Western Left notably more thuggish, in the late 1980's, which is precisely when relations with Russia were thawing. The cultural elitist Western Left, during the Soviet's reign, often disagreed with the Soviet not on ideology but on execution in the 1920's-1950's. When the horrors of communism were exposed in the 60's, few Westerners openly admitted to having any taste for Eastern Leftism anymore. And thus the 60's and 70's were a period of rapidly growing personal freedom and experimentation for Westerners, who largely didn't regret the newfound freedom as they rejected both authoritarian controls and even the moderate controls placed on Westerners in the 1920's-1950's.

In the 1980's, Western Silents and Boomers began to regret the hedonism of the 60's and 70's, but importantly, they all split along a variety of lines. The conservative elitists wanted to re-introduce moderate to severe behavioral controls WRT crime and drugs, while insisting that economic freedom be absolute. On the Left, a donnybrook broke out between old-school Leftists who wanted to soak the rich, enlarge unions, raise wages, etc. and new-school Leftists who were largely disinterested in maintaining or amplifying the "class-warfare" of the 1920's-1960's, but were enthusiastic about cultural Marxist intellectual and psychological controls that were reminiscent of what the Soviets did. After the commies began to liberalize relations with other countries, suddenly the cultural New Left no longer feared accusations of Xeroxing Soviet practices. After the Berlin Wall fell in '89, campuses (and corporate board rooms) felt a chill......Don't say (or write, or think) anything racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, etc. Americans still weren't quite ready to embrace such anti-American thought controls, though, and there was a swift backlash in the early 90's.

Feryl said...

The corporate cultural Marxist whore variant of Leftism went dormant for a bit, but as soon as the economic boom of the later 90's was widely understood, the Marxists went back to work and started drawing up even more ambitious enforcement of thought control WRT global warming, animal rights, racial and sexual minority rights, etc. You see, the perceived value of old-school Western Leftism (some of which was used in the America of the 1920's-1970's) has waned as Leftwing Silents and Boomers reaped as much lucre from the booms of the 80's and 90's as anyone else.

The pitiful dream of Leftist Silents and Boomers (which also infected "conservatives" to a degree) was that anyone could realize their financial dreams if they were taught the right "values".....Which invariably included prodigious efforts at evicting any "racist" or "sexist" thoughts and speech from anyone accepted in polite society. This is a vast departure from Western Leftism of the 20's-60's, in which the greatest taboo was reveling in greedy excess. Modern New Leftism has jumped the shark, over and over again, by clearly not possessing any ability or willingness to punish decadent greedy elites while bending over backwards to police "offensive" speech. It really smacks of the West's intellectual and ethical degeneration that several generations were taught that it was ok to live a life of greedy excess and decadence as long as you....Didn't say anything that would hurt someone's feelings.

Feryl said...

Get the vomit bucket ready......

This Boomer jerkoff bit the dust in January and can no longer slither about, injecting his venom of multi(death)cult corporate approved nihilism into us.

Betraying thousands of years of history, changing the identity and culture of nations literally overnight....Who cares, as long as the upper classes raked in more dough.

Western culture, esp. it's Teutonic variant, is in it's death spasms. We've been sold-out by a thoroughly degenerate generation, who either gang-raped our traditional culture and honor, or else simply stood by and were too cowardly to amass legions with which to do battle against the heathens.

What kind of self-respecting nation, or collection of similar nations, gives any kind of clout, any kind of esteem, to this sort of pig? Openly declaring the historical ethnic make-up of his nation, and Europe in general, to be a "threat" to growth and "progress".

It looks like the best thing we can hope for is Leftists like Sanders and Kucinich to bring youngsters and working class whites together against the common foe of decadent rich assholes. It really shouldn't be that hard, in light of the fact that many people born after the early 70's haven't even gotten married or had kids. There's a lot of discontent here...If we can't de-program X-ers and Millennials out of pro-diversity nonsense, than at least we can sic them on the God of Economic Growth, whose worship has destroyed so much.

Anonymous said...

I'm just not convinced the overall Jewish IQ is significantly higher than gentile IQ in anything but verbal IQ. Germany put all their Jews in work camps and had no problem developing groundbreaking feats of physics and engineering. One would think Israel, with 2.8 million Ashkenazi Jews in a country of only 8,000 sq. miles, would be pouring out new technology the way the Nazis did. I think the Flynn effect has a lot to do with gentile IQ catching up, especially as quickly as it did. Thanks to the internet, even rural gentiles get bombarded with more information than they can handle.

Feryl said...


The Germans had the advantage of building a very high trust culture. All ethnic groups do better in Anglo-Teutonic countries, so long as they are permitted to do so.

The further you get from Anglo-Teutonic lands, the lower the trust, thus making it difficult for teams and communities to cooperate and get things done. With the obvious exception of some parts of Asia. Right now the globalists are busy "stress testing" the Teuton-sphere, with only a handful of hold-outs (like Iceland) being spared. It remains to be seen just how far you have to go in transforming demographics to effect a shift to low trust culture, although we've already known for generations that the Deep South and Mid-Atlantic were "diverse" enough to make people more cynical than elsewhere in America, while California speaks for itself (the state of Nixon and Reagan saw it's communal bonds already broken by 1980, God knows what's happened since).

BTW, there long was a rivalry between German and "Russian" (well, Eastern) Jews. If memory serves, German Jews often had contempt for Easterners. Seems like Teutonic pride also infused the area's Jews, too, as German Jews did much to lift the West up in terms of R&D in the early 20th century.

Anonymous said...

You can't overlook that we're still living through the reign of the 60s in terms of the elites and the chaos bought the worst of *every group* to the fore and to power.
The Clinton's for instance aren't Jewish and they turned our government into Brazil's.

They're all passing and so is this aberration of power and wealth being concentrated so heavily in outsiders.

Finally the Jewish fixation is unhealthy in the sense it skews all reality to being about them...there's no need they've got that covered -and their time is passing.


Audacious Epigone said...


As Snorlax points out, those who religiously self-ID as Jews are much less theistic than self-IDed Protestants and Catholics. Percentages who "know God exists" for Jews, Protestants, and Catholics are 34.1%, 74.6%, and 62.1%, respectively. Nearly 1-in-5 Jews are atheist or agnostic (compared to 2.5% of Christians). Some ethnic Jews do of course self-ID as irreligious. It's hard to know exactly how many, but the GSS polls self-IDed Jews as 1.7% of the population which very roughly suggests that about 75% of ethnic Jews ID religiously as Jews while about 25% do not.


PPP is more meaningful in terms of understanding standard of living. Nominal measures don't mean much other than travel being cheap! In seriousness, though, the point is well taken.


Huh? The GSS samples respondents aged as young as 18 and as old as 89. Respondents who are enrolled at the time of survey participation must surely be much less than 1% of the total respondent pool.


I'm optimistic that will change. Yeah, I know Gregory Cochran is not sanguine on it and so I'm disagreeing with him here, but once we start seeing real world results (embryo selection for desired traits and to avoid diseases, functioning CRISPR, etc), it's going to be impossible to contain. Even if the West keeps it bottled up, the Han won't.


Funny you mention that, as today as I was thinking about this post I realized that I have a mischling relative and my wife has three. We already knew this, of course, but I'd never really thought about it in this context. My cousin's wife is Jewish and they just had a boy. He's a professor and she does something that has the veneer of nanotechnology but actually seems to be more along the lines of vampiric HR crap involving nanotech companies. My wife's uncle is Jewish (he's married to my wife's aunt--the aunt is who she is related by blood to) and his three kids are my wife's cousins. They are 1%ers. He sold a large medical practice years ago and they now live in a 10,000 square foot mansion with neighbors like George Brett and Tech N9ne.

The intermarriage anecdotes have been staring me right in the face!


Agree wrt the potential obsession. I don't consider myself overly focused on it, though the JQ is important and it's something I'm late to the party on.

Sid said...

First, this is a very important finding. I don't remember reading about Ashkenazi IQ scores converging with Gentile ones in the HBDspehere.

Some thoughts on how this relates to the JQ:

1. If Jews have an IQ of 107, this puts them at on a level comparable to Koreans (IQ 105-107). The Koreans and Korean-Americans I generally give off the impression of being solidly above average in intelligence, but aren't scary smart the way Jews did a century ago.

As such, I think the distinctive profile of Jews will diminish over time, especially as they interbreed with Gentiles.

How will this change the JQ? Well, Jews effectively built the bomb for the USA in WWII, because the Nazis were stupid enough to kick out their brightest people before the war and actively murder them during it.

In royal courts, great artists and thinkers were accorded leeway with social rules. In a sense, I think most white Americans have acknowledged that Ashkenazi Jews are extremely bright, and hence have given them some leeway in how devoted they really are to the national culture.

As Jewish accomplishment goes from being stellar to above average, I think more white Americans will demand that Jews cut down on the social justice rhetoric and the victimhood narratives.

2. I've talked a lot about Jews as they were a hundred years ago, so let me write about what they will likely be like a hundred years from now.

I expect they will have divided into two groups: one that has interbreeded with other high class whites, and hence only faintly culturally and ethnically Jewish; and Hasidic types who remain as Jewish as before.

The upper class white Jews will probably be like other elite whites, both in IQ, temperament, and manners. The future Hasidic Jews probably won't have particularly high IQs, but will be especially closested and clannish, largely doing their own thing in their own communities.

What we're seeing now is a Midway point between the two centuries. The Jewish identity is still distinct, but is increasingly insecure in a number of Jews. It's been noted here that blacks with dark skin feel more secure in their identity than light skinned blacks do, and a lot of the most grating SJW rhetoric comes from the light skinned blacks who want to make a big show of how much they dislike whites to shore up their black identity.

It wouldn't surprise me if the (((SJW Jew))) phenomenon is similar. That it's being carried out by Jews who are worried about losing their old identity.

In general, you don't see people who take the Orthodox rules seriously and genuinely believe in the God of Judaism make as big of a ruckus as the ones who are atheists, have Gentile wives, and say, "As the grandchild of refugees," and "My fellow white people..."

(If it's not clear here, I have no issue with Jews as a group or an identity, but I can stand the SJW ones about as much as you guys can!)

I could be wrong about this, but it's fun to get your thoughts out there and see where they lead.

Jig Bohnson said...

"One would think Israel, with 2.8 million Ashkenazi Jews in a country of only 8,000 sq. miles, would be pouring out new technology..."

Anonymous, you are a dumb ass. Israel is an undisputed technological leader. It has the highest or second highest spending on R&D per capita, the third highest number of startups listed on the NASDAQ, most science Nobelists per capita since 2000, and many other measures. That is in spite of being 9 miles wide surrounded by genocidal enemies, and having to drag along internal unproductive sectors which constitute ~30% of the population.

The science and technology prowess of Israel, along with its overall overperforming economy in spite of the demographic obstacles it faces, is superb evidence for high Jewish IQ, at least for sub-populations.

Anonymous said...

Jig Bohnson,

Indeed, Israel looks great...on paper. If their average IQ really was something silly like 115+ then I would expect the country to look like Wakanda. Instead, it looks more like South Korea (on paper) so an average IQ of 105-107 seems more reasonable.

Jonathan Centauri said...

Wordsum isn't IQ. Its verbal IQ. White men dominate patents and inventions. Jews steal them. I've never met any really smart Jews. Smarmy and arrogant yes.
Verbal IQ is all talk. Not Math. Certainly not engineering. You can see the Jews have no ability to use tools at all. Its not just laziness either. They're unable to manage the manual dexterity part.
Israel gets Billions in aid. Its a welfare state. They have virtually no industries to speak of. Their weapons are all imported and sent as AID. This hardly bespeaks of intelligence.

Audacious Epigone said...


The Ashkenazi shrinkage will occur alongside the proportional and eventually absolute shrinkage of the white population. The Coalition of the Fringes will come to the conclusion at some point that the Jews have worn out their welcome and will no longer be granted honorary non-white status for the sake of expediency. Non-whites will have the sheer numbers that will make it unnecessary for them to play nice with the Schumers and the Feinsteins anymore. Additionally, we're getting close to the point where the Holocaust is entirely outside of living memory.

216 said...


How far do you see this "inherited Holocaust/slavery trauma" meme going? I'm somewhat pleased to see Lamarck making a comeback, even if SJWs are the ones behind it.

Even if the Rising Tide displaces Jews from political leadership, would it take the course that it did wrt Hugo Chavez? The ownership of media, real estate and technology that persist in our major metropolitan areas leads me to think that Jews will retain influence behind the scenes. (Allegations of this in South Africa) Intermarriage also has the benefit of increasing those claiming fractional Jewish identity for Oppression Points.

If automation enables basic income, that could be lights out for dissident politics.

Jonathan Centauri said...

Basic income is just more welfare. It causes problems and never solves them. Automation kills the need for cheap labor doesn't it? How do you "justify" open borders when machines do the work?

You're grasping at straws.

Anonymous said...

the most obvious answer isn't obvious at all.

what % of mischlinge identify as jews in the GSS?

when jews marry out they are NOT marrying gentiles at random. they're marrying the smarter fraction.

HBDers are just crypto-jews.


---BGI volunteer 100% western european goy.

Sid said...


I largely agree with your analysis. You can already see European cucks giving preference to Muslim concerns over Jewish ones where they conflict, because Muslims offer more votes and enjoy more victimhood Pokemon points than what Jews can bring.


I'll write here about how the Holocaust will be remembered, which is a point AE touched on and you replied to.

Steve Sailer has remarked that the importance of slavery and Jim Crow laws only seems to grow the farther away we get from them. There are two reasons for this,

1. Blacks have generally made little to no progress in social equality with whites. After billions of dollars, maybe trillions, being spent on gibs, blacks have had to make ever more extensive excuses for why they're not succeeding while keeping their egos intact. Hence, slavery, Jim Crow, and redlining are blamed, rather than that their average IQ is locked at 85 no matter how much money we spend.

2. Being that blacks are still largely screw ups, there are lots of terrible incidents which allow them to relive their historical mythology. Trayvon Martin got killed? Let's remember Emmett Till! Another story about how black schools are dreadful? The legacy of Jim Crow! A cop shot a black man? Slavery!

In contrast, it's damn hard for Jews to look at their lives in America and be reminded of the Holocaust. The SPLC and ADL go out of their way to look for antisemitic hate hoaxes.

In general, Jews enjoy great lives in America. I was actually in Budapest, Hungary during the Charlie Hebdo attack and kosher deli massacre, and it made some of the Holocaust memorials I saw all the more chilling. But that's an example of Muslims in Europe joining Al-Qaeda and shooting Jews, so it's not really a reenactment of the Holocaust so much as Muslims causing yet more mayhem. SJWs are happy to forget about such incidents even before the bodies get cold.

It won't be long now before WWII becomes a historical memory, as AE said. It's striking, though not surprising, how little NAMs and immigrants care about it. In general, they don't bother learning about WWII (except that they should call white people Nazis every so often), and spend their time learning about all the trivia they can to browbeat whites for being racist.

Jig Bohnson said...

@ Anonymous

Yes, clearly Israel's average IQ is not 115. For starters, Israel is at least 20% non-Jewish, and that includes some fraction of tribal Muslims who practice cousin marriage and other dysgenic practices. There are also non-productive Jewish sectors such as the ultra-Orthodox.

So if you have a country that is basically on a par with Japan in terms of non-ppp adjusted GDP per capita yet unlike Japan is saddled with ~40% non-productive population, that other 60% must be really pulling a lot of weight. The average IQ of that 60% will have to be higher than Japan to equal Japan in non-ppp adjusted GDP per capita.

If we go further to split out Ashkenazim, they are at most half of that 60%, so now you are talking about 30% of the country allowing it to reach Japan-level performance. What average IQ does that take among the 30%? 115 does not seem unreasonable, 110 seems like a minimum.

Dan said...

AE --

Watching how the unbelievable brazenness of the deep state in its conspiracies against Trump, and watching how strong the forces are to suppress uncomfortable thought, something occurred to me which I want to bring up here.

What if the Flynn effect is a conspiracy to present a narrative that isn't true?

I always thought the Flynn effect was strange and just a really pleasant narrative. As you know Bruce Charleton (Charleton Teaching blog) hasn't agreed with it.

I was watching a documentary about the creation of the Boston subway and the adoption of electric power starting around 120 years ago. The photos and footage from the era seem to show a people who look more civilized and advanced than ours (at least superficially in terms of dress and faces) and the subway worked really well. The Flynn effect is supposed to tell us that these people were borderline imbeciles?

Can the Flynn effect be a conspiracy of some loud confidence men who brashly argue the total certainty of the data? I can certainly see how people could believe they are acting in the common good by hiding that. They are wrong but I can see how they could think that.

Sid said...


It presently appears that interbreeding is softening the IQ gap between the Ashkenazi and the Gentiles in the USA.

In contrast, I don't know about marriage patterns in Israel. It could very well be that the Ashkenazi Jews keep among themselves in marriage and could still enjoy IQs around 110-115. But I don't know anything about this topic, so don't quote me on this.

I've compared American Jews with Koreans. A big difference between them, however, is that Jews have high verbal intelligence which doubles over into quantitative reasoning, but poor visuo-spatial intelligence. In contrast, Koreans have first-rate visuo-spatial thinking but mediocre verbal intelligence.

This is why you see Israel doing so well in software, whereas Koreans make great hardware.

Feryl said...

"I was watching a documentary about the creation of the Boston subway and the adoption of electric power starting around 120 years ago. The photos and footage from the era seem to show a people who look more civilized and advanced than ours (at least superficially in terms of dress and faces) and the subway worked really well. The Flynn effect is supposed to tell us that these people were borderline imbeciles?"

Around 1900 was when the initial burst of progressiveness (which is to say, narrowing the gap between rich and poor, and ferreting out corruption, not retarded crap about veganism or whatever) happened, which intensified greatly between 1920 and 1940. Culminating in the "common man's paradise" of the late 40's-1960's, which even Steve Sailer as a California youngster remembers.

Into this "paradise" (which, really, it was in comparison to most other places and times) were the Boomers born, who would be profoundly ungrateful for what they inherited, indeed they would often avowedly reject the concept that they were inheriting the behavioral and moral values of their ancestors. Largely free of the practical survival concerns of previous generations, the Boomers naively mucked about with all kinds of things that previous generations, to varying degrees, avoided on the principle of long-term consideration for what was in the best interest of society. And thus record high levels of robbery, rape, murder, drug use, youthful alcohol intake, etc. would beset Western Civ. by the late 1960's, setting in motion a "non-judgemental", "experimental", "free" culture which has plagued us to this day, although those born in the 1970's-present have come to frequently resent growing up in a world where traditional customs and the stability therein were trashed by the Me Generation*. As for the "conservative" Boomers, in the 1970's-present they became apologists for neo-liberalism and decadent elites, thereby nullifying anything positive they had to say about sex or drugs or crime. We saw this play out with Trump, whose initial concerns about reigning in corruption and monopolies were completely ignored by GOP inc., while most of GOP inc. still heaps abuse on (street) criminals and terrorists.

The Dems are primed to do very well as their leading politicians began to give under 50 voters what they want: all-out war on criminals who wear suits.

*People under 45 often self-ID as culturally liberal, yet they tend to (with the exception of pot use) be much less hedonistic in their practiced behavior than those born in the 1940's-1960's. See collapsing smoking rates among young people since the late 90's, rising rates of virginity (and this after late 60's and early 70's births had record rates of teen sex), the aging profile of STDs (whereas in the 60's and 70's, most STD cases were clustered in teens and young adults).

Feryl said...

Dysgenic effects have been seen in some studied countries (including Iceland), as the post-1960's women's lib movement (and culture of striving for high status) has resulted in many intelligent women delaying childbirth or not having kids at all. I read somewhere ago that Boomer women are something like 30% more likely to be childless in comparison to women born before 1946. Something I've concluded based on much evidence (such as difficult to avoid debt, self IDing as middle class or not, growing living costs, etc.) is that people born before 1970 often chose their destiny, rather than having to deal with all kinds of shit that was impossible to dodge. Whereas us people born since 1970 got dealt a much tougher hand, economically. And that's why I believe that those who are indifferent to corporate whoredom while they beat the drum about "principles" and "values" tend to be older. A desire to reign in decadent elites will be much more common among those who feel as if they've lived in a profoundly corrupt society; corrupted not just by drugs or whatever, but corrupted also by greed.

sykes.1 said...

Vox Day has argued persuasively that the claim of an Ashkenazi mean IQ of 115 or so is based on a sampling error. It comes from tests run on elite Ashkenazi school children. He thinks a more plausible estimate is around 108, which would put them in the same class as East Asians..

Feryl said...

"1. Blacks have generally made little to no progress in social equality with whites. After billions of dollars, maybe trillions, being spent on gibs, blacks have had to make ever more extensive excuses for why they're not succeeding while keeping their egos intact. Hence, slavery, Jim Crow, and redlining are blamed, rather than that their average IQ is locked at 85 no matter how much money we spend."

Indeed, the "school to prison pipeline" exists precisely because blacks don't get the message that crime doesn't pay. A serial killer researcher found that blacks accounted for around 30% of serial killings in 1980 (which is still disproportionate), but by 2005 they accounted for around 70% (!!!!!!!!!!!!!) of serial killings. When we started throwing tons of people in jail in the late 80's, whites were smart enough to understand that the costs of committing crimes far outweighs the benefits (furthermore, a fair number of white criminals used to be moderately smart people, but nowadays only the most knuckle dragging buffoon whites still choose a life of crime, being that the punishment if caught is so severe).

And not to sound, uh, rude, but the reality is that before 1960 misbehaving blacks were more likely to be swiftly and physically punished for misdeeds. Which sent them a message. Many blacks do not have the intelligence to broadly understand the modern justice system, which cuffs people, reads them their rights, and sends 'em off to court where hapless blacks usually end up being sent away to serve longer sentences. Blacks develop an attitude of superstition about the process, acting like it's the white man's voodoo. Whereas pre-1960, blacks viscerally responded to being beaten with night sticks.

Of the three phases of crime enforcement in American history (Pre-1960, 1960-1980, and post-1980) the first phase was by far the best approach to dealing with blacks. Whereas the middle phase was disastrous for all races (and gave us record high levels of child molestation and serial killing in the late 70's and early 80's), and the current phase is good for whites but abysmal for blacks.

216 said...


Prior to 1960 black males were often employed in a unionized factory job that provided a degree of stability. Deindustrialization began in the Midwest/Northeast around the same time that the Civil Rights revolution began. It was the perfect storm for crime to remove restraints on a group of people that had marginal value in the labor market vis-à-vis a worker in Asia.

Probably due to biological and cultural factors, blacks have lower rate of paternal investment. Crime worsens this impact, which is why black activists want drugs and "quality of life" offenses decriminalized.

GOP policies here are aimed at squeezing the male back into the family unit, via welfare work requirements/drug testing. But these policies assume a rational individual and a labor market that accepts low skills and chronic absenteeism.

Sid said...


Right, I would agree with your analysis of policing and white criminality across time. If you look at the history of the mob, the all time greats are considered to be those who came of age in the 20s through the 50s. They were ruthless, but were also patient, conniving, and could keep themselves in check. They were greedy bastards who wanted to make a lot of money without working too hard - and during that time, yes, you had to work hard to not starve.

The Baby Boomers were called the "Opera Generation." Me me me me me.

They were generally lower quality than the old timers. The guys who rose up also wanted to get rich without working hard, but generally had a weaker team ethic (which is important, even in a band of thieves) and had plenty of psychological problems.

The guys today are said to be dimwits, and a major reason why the mob isn't what it used to be. Most whites understand that crime is a very dangerous "career," and is high risk, low reward. Even poor whites enjoy much more comfortable lives than people did in the early 20th century, so if you're a lazy jerk, you can just smoke marijuana and play video games, and sponge off of your social network in between jobs.

Another thing, too, is that most (white) criminals aren't born serial killers. They have to take steps to go from petty theft, to running major rackets, to murder, to habitual, cold blooded psychopathy. The mob helped young hoodlums take these steps as a means to help them move up the hierarchy. So if low quality whites don't really have the overwhelming need or guidance to become utterly dehumanized gangsters, they might just wind up being low level, petty thieves.

Wrt to blacks, the court system takes so long that a lot of them don't even appreciate why they're being punished. Of course, the era of "country justice" triggers people, and police brutality is becoming ever riskier as surveillance becomes ever more present. I don't know if we have an option other than a 60s lack of punishment or modern mass incarceration.

Tashkent Lutsow said...

sykes1 said,

He thinks a more plausible estimate is around 108, which would put them in the same class as East Asians.

How does he then account for the overrepresentation of Jews in various academic fields, especially in comparison with East Asians? Even when differences in personality traits between them are taken into account, the Jewish-East Asian achievement gap is too large for them to be similarly intelligent population. I think he's wrong.

Jonathan Centauri said...


Much like H1-b Indians have taken over entire IT departments and software fields, and MOST CANNOT EVEN CODE AT ALL.

Welcome to the Reality of Race and Tribe.

Audacious Epigone said...


Ideally (and probably naively), Ashkenazi Jews increasingly come to think of themselves as whites.

That's how non-whites are going to think about them so it's not clear that being a Jew is going to provide much more protection than being an Episcopalian will in another generation or so, especially as the Muslim population in the US increases.

Wrt basic income, expound on that if you would. Seems to me that UBI would allow dissidents who live like Sam Francis did (i.e. cheaply) would be able to be full-time dissidents and survive off UBI alone.


Possible, though we'd still expect some regression to the mean. Otoh, are mudsharks getting with the smartest fraction of blacks? I don't know.


Right. There is a constant reminder of black oppression in the form of continuing black failure and dysfunction. If the legacy of the Holocaust, in contrast, is owning half the country, well, that's a hard sell when it comes to eliciting a lot sympathy or preferential treatment.


Seems plausible because the Flynn effect seems too cute. Otoh, Richard Lynn is the one who first identified it and it seems highly unlikely that he is interested in pushing any pretty lies about intelligence. I don't know enough about it to answer definitively. It doesn't show up in wordsum results from the GSS. The mean score is virtually identical in 2016 to what it was in 1978.


Fascinating insight regarding how slowly the justice system deals with black criminals who probably have some of the highest time preference rates in the country. Big mismatch there.

snorlax said...

AE - "Seems to me that UBI would allow dissidents ... to be full-time dissidents and survive off UBI alone."

Not if UBI is actually U-except-for-"Nazis"-BI. Even the threat of denying it to "Nazis" would cow many into silence.

Audacious Epigone said...


Some universality is more universal than others!

Feryl said...

". It was the perfect storm for crime to remove restraints on a group of people"

Declining econ. opportunity was mostly incidental to police being told (at the threat of federal intervention) that they no longer could manhandle hoodlums unless said police legitimately feared imminent death. Simultaneously, criminals were not being prosecuted as frequently and seriously as they once were. To this day, many Boomers act as if "the system" isn't hard enough on criminals, which ought to tell you something about how inept judges and prosecutors were in the 60's and 70's.

"GOP policies here are aimed at squeezing the male back into the family unit, via welfare work requirements/drug testing. But these policies assume a rational individual and a labor market that accepts low skills and chronic absenteeism."

Yup. The problem with Anglo conservatism and high immigration/diversity levels is that it becomes morally incumbent that white conservatives (cucks) expect all ethnic groups to assimilate to ideal lifestyles and cultures....Under the proper conditions, which never really materialize to the liking of Righties (and lack of such is blamed on Leftists and Paleo-cons). Meanwhile, most cucks have learned to never aggressively attack affirmative action, bizarrely enough, even though they pretend that "conservative principles" can be persuasively argued while one doesn't touch the policy third rail of aff. action. It's like they intuitively realize how screwed blacks would be under color blind policies, which would render most workplaces as non-black as they were before 1946.

BTW, the early 90's would've been the ideal time for people in either party to reduce or discard aff. action, which was widely resented by America's then heavily white population because by that point most whites realized just how incompetent blacks were and were sick tired of workplace ineptitude. I'd even hazard to say that most whites back then would've preferred UBI reparations (w or w/o sterilization) to waiting 3 hours at the DMV.

The prevailing laws since the mid-90's, as to how they affect blacks, aren't as dumb as they were in the 60's-80's (soft on crime, easy welfare). But they certainly are worse than the Paleo-con approved pre-1960's, when whites openly did things in their own interest, which often turned out to be....In the best interest of blacks, whose smartest people had to live among and take care of other blacks, and people of all races were pressured to keep themselves in line.

"Fascinating insight regarding how slowly the justice system deals with black criminals who probably have some of the highest time preference rates in the country."

Over the last 10-15 years, a lot of black serial killers have been busted, some of whom date back to the 80's. Blacks are lower income, and the ones who are crime victims tend to be lower income still. Plus, blacks are notoriously uninterested in cooperating with police, one of the reasons that property crime in black neighborhoods is probably very under reported (murders, on the other hand....). So it would seem that it's fairly easy to get away with serial murder if you're black, at least for a while.

Feryl said...

UBI, which WRT blacks is reparations, is less attractive to "conservatives" than AA or welfare-to-work, on a moral level. Yet, logistically, it's vastly preferable. It would really speed up and smooth out society to have inept blacks sitting at home or hanging out on a street corner (with less incentive to commit crime), as opposed to them being given jobs for which whites would have more ability. But since when have modern "conservatives" given a shit about what works best in practice? Or even theory? They delusionally think that under the right conditions (which aren't ever going to happen) every person in the human race would adore Edmund Burke.

Tailor UBI to race and/or general ability, while discarding AA and work requirements.

Whites would get the smallest amount.
Asians would be second (remember, this includes Hmong and Dot Indians)
Hispanics and MENA would be third
Blacks and feather Indians would get the most.

We'd score victories on Left-wing fronts (blacks and Indians get more reparations), while greater freedom of association would be possible thus pleasing the Right.

Note: many conservatives think (mistakenly) that blacks already get gobs of welfare. Not really. Welfare benefits were generous in the 60's-early 90's, then the neo-liberal Left teamed up with the Right to greatly restrict eligibility in the late 90's. Stuff like SSI is a pittance, and the lower classes of America tend to be in much rougher shape than they are in Western Europe or Japan.

Feryl said...

WRT trouble making blacks not being baby sat at work, keep in mind that UBI could be legislated to only be available to blacks who have squeaky clean criminal records.

Blacks who commit violent or felony crimes would be permanently barred from getting UBI, in addition cops (or some kind of UBI themed auxiliary) could temporarily cancel a UBI card if a black is acting up.

And of course we'd keep mass incarceration up.

Personally I'm a big fan of this kind of paleo-fan fic, but then again, I'm not a "real" conservative", am I? As if the changes of the last 60 years aren't sci-fi to any generation but the Boomers and those to whom they bore influence.

Thanks to the "Idiocracy" of the last 60 years, the generations born lifetimes from now may not even recognize the the linguistics I use.

Instead of leveling with the reality of race-relations, and what's really best for everyone, we instead acted as if race was only.....Skin deep, and anything negative between races was but an effect of poor socialization.

Mark my words, no "conservative" born between 1940 and 2000 would dare utter, in the presence of authority, the concept of giving young black men a $5000/month UBI card on the condition of being given a vasectomy first. Meanwhile, cucks look the other way at institutions that operate below first world standards due to myopic AA and welfare to work policies. And said cucks also ignore the fact that the society they idealize grows less possible as successive generations of Americans are less white.

Feryl said...

Can we please generate memes about feckless cuck or liberal white Boomers telling us how to handle race relations? This from a generation who were children and teens during a decade (the 1960's) when even America was mostly white, to say nothing of other Western countries.

It's great that so many Silents and Boomers did, in essence, NOTHING to stop the demographic fuse from being lit. And the price we pay for complacency is only going to get greater.

Jonathan Centauri said...


Universal Basic Income is a Trick. "Affirmative Action" and "diversity" are NOT PROFITABLE. This is just a YUUGE Wealth Transfer from White to Stupid. Its a Giant Increase in Welfare.




They have Nowhere Left to Run. This "globalism" has ENSURED there are NO MORE RECEPTIVE AUDIENCES OR GULLIBLE VICTIMS FOR THEIR LIES!

Feryl said...

I'd accept UBI in exchange for the removal of diversity mandates at work, school, and in neighborhoods.

Who cares how my taxes are being used as long as I get to work and live among my own kind?

Many whites are sick and damn tired of governments, lawyers, and corporations enforcing diversity. UBI with restored freedom of association would in a certain sort of way be extortion against the majority, but then again, it would still be better than what we've got.

Absent expulsions of blacks, or a return to the policies of the pre-1960's, the best we can do is pay blacks a shit load of money in exchange for restored freedom of association. For that matter, a generous UBI with no welfare-work requirement would actually cause a lot of blacks to voluntarily withdraw from the workforce, regardless of AA policies.

Jonathan Centauri said...

Feryl, you must be delusional. UBI doesn't change anything as far as Affirmative Action goes. It just enlarges the welfare pool, by REMOVING ALL THE BARRIERS AND QUALIFICATIONS. It will triple or quadruple the welfare rolls, and I assure you that WHITES will be denied these benefits. Whites are being denied benefits NOW. Do you expect this to "change"? How?
They STILL HAVE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION in South Africa. Its not about "minority status" or "poverty". ITS ANTI-WHITE.

Audacious Epigone said...


We need only take it a step further and what you're after is a lot like what I imagine political dissolution looking like. The big transfer to end all transfers--figuratively and literally--followed by the return of freedom of association in something that looks a lot like a de facto European ethnostate.


The affirmative action in South Africa is worse than in the US. The white squatter camps are filled with whites who don't have enough on the ball to work for themselves and who cannot be hired by any employers--public or private--because of federal laws mandating blacks be hired instead.

Jonathan Centauri said...

AE, the South Africa today shows a lot about the REAL CHARACTER of blacks. They were foreigners that came for "jobs". They GENOCIDED the Pygmies. They outnumbered Whites through profligate breeding and bringing in their own. They said that they "believed in fairness" to GET HANDOUTS. When they were in charge, THEY LOOTED EVERYTHING THAT WHITES BUILT AND ARE NOW GOING TO GENOCIDE THEM.
Its not really about just blacks though. The Zulu Tribe has taken over. Other tribes are attacked and killed for "trespassing" on Zulu land. Our enemies are also a "tribe". They are now finding the Zulus are rather uncooperative. Not paying debts and attacking bankers. Idi Amin all over again, huh?