Monday, February 12, 2018

Smear the Episcopalian

Z-Man reads from the Episcopalian Book of Common Prayer (DC diocese version):



This is in the context of his pointing out how gay--or more precisely, lesbian--the Anglican offshoot's leadership has become.

The GSS cannot speak about said leadership, but it does allow for a look at the laity. And the Episcopalian laity is pretty gay. The following graph shows the percentages of members of various Christian denominations in the US who are homosexual or bisexual. All data are from 2008--the first year the survey began explicitly asking about sexual orientation--onward (N = 4,901):


Mary, parental unit of Jesus/Jesusa/Them, Z-Man has done it again!

GSS variables used: SEXORNT, DENOM(10-19)(20-29)(30-39)(40-49)(50), OTHER(59-64), RELIG(2)

63 comments:

Feryl said...

Sorry 'bout going off topic right away, but since I worry that a post in the previous thread might get buried, I thought I'd put this hear:

http://www.unz.com/pbuchanan/trump-middle-american-radical/

Buchanan says, paraphrasing another article, that since Trump is himself not a proto conservative, he isn't held back by normal notions of restraint and good faith. Prior Republican presidents would've limited themselves to occasional light jabs, often done in private, at institutions known to harbor animus towards conservative ideas. They may even have humored and flattered, say, the media, as Reagan ("the great communicator") and Bush 2 did. Trump on the other hand has emboldened conservatives to attack institutions that were once regarded as flawed but still basically fair and respectable by most conservatives (e.g., the NFL and the FBI). As for the media, already held to be dubious by the Right in the 90's-2010's. Trump has annihilated the last vestiges of faith in the idea of a non-partisan and fair media.

Buchanan also accurately (and without obligatory and lame partisanship) that both parties went to great lengths in the 1940's-1970's to investigate corruption and treason. In the 80's and especially the subsequent decades, invariable the Left 1/3 of America cravenly defends their side and blasts the other side, and likewise for the Right side although the Right isn't quite as over zealous. Meanwhile, the independent/moderate faction rolls their eyes and understands the games that are played which have no great benefit to most of us.

Buchanan for whatever reason doesn't touch on the 20's or 30's, but he should've as these decades represent the tentative steps that were taken down the path to reform.

Saint Louis said...

Reminds me of a joke I heard back in '04 or so:

Q: Why are Episcopalians bad at chess?
A: Because they don't know the difference between a bishop and a queen.

MattW said...

Mormons are far from perfect but they do some things quite well. The general culture softly pushes gays away from the core out to the fringes, and raises the status of marriage, fatherhood and motherhood.

(though to be fair maybe I just see what I want to see, having grown up in a very devout mormon family)

Tashkent Lutsow said...

The Episcopalians are the most SJW Christian denomination. Not that it helps them. They keep losing members. Thank God for that.

IHTG said...

They don't make Baptists like they used to!

Anonymous said...

Tashkent,

Ever heard of the United Church of Christ, or the Unitarians?

Wency said...

Is it a coincidence that the Anglicans are the most decadent of mainline Protestants? Unlike the other Protestant groups, the Church of England has long been understood not to have been founded not on the basis of any sincere difference of opinion but solely to fill the coffers and justify the absurd serial monogamy of a king (some would say a tyrant), who himself was ambivalent for the rest of his life about his decision to do so.

So it ends up being the Seinfeld of denominations: a religion about nothing. And it seems Conquest's Second Law applies most fiercely to "organizations about nothing" as they grope for something to be about.

The Z Blog said...

It is remarkable just how gay the Episcopal church has become in the last couple of generations. Given that the Episcopal Church used to be the faith of the American ruling class, it is probably symbolic of something not obvious to me. Perhaps it is the final humiliation the new ruling class is inflicting on their vanquished predecessors.

From what I understand, the only thing keeping the Episcopal Church upright is a financial structure put together a long time ago that keeps the doors open, despite the lack of parishioners. Up until about 25 years ago, wealthy donors were happy to build up the endowments of the church. It is those endowments that keep the doors open.

It is a good reminder that Wells was right. "It is a law of nature we overlook, that intellectual versatility is the compensation for change, danger, and trouble."

Jim Bowery said...

Lest this comment be deleted I'll bite my tongue and only point out there is a reason I chose this logo for The Fair Church℠.

http://fairchurch.org/

DissidentRight said...

The Episcopalians are simply reaping what the sowed over a hundred years ago. The Social Gospel is Jesus-flavored Social Justice. Of course once they started ordaining women the effects were irreversible. Gay ordination was inevitable.

It's kind of funny how the Roman church skipped over women's ordination and went straight to gay ordination. No wonder they've become so cancerous.

That Lutheran stat is high thanks to the ELCA, which naturally ordains women and gays. Just under 2/3s of American Lutherans are ELCA members, the other Lutheran institutions absolutely condemn homosexuality and do not permit gay ordination.

The Russian Ortho-Bot said...

Might I suggest that anyone reading this, who is unhappy with the direction of their current congregation, should investigate the Western Rite of the Russian Orthodox Church?

There is currently a very large movement of former Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Romans coming over to us. Many of these people are coming over as whole congregations because their priests have converted and educated their flocks.

I know this comment will hit automoderation if I include links, but please, anyone interested, look for the ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) Western Rite home page, Western Rite Radio, and documents such as the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church, for more information.

Jig Bohnson said...

As an atheist I don't really have a dog in this fight, but as a person who is against ranting on street corners I kind of do, so for what it's worth:

When people convert to a religious sect that has no actual tradition in their family or community, it invariably ends up being phony, self-parodying, and silly. Think the Nation of Islam, George Harrison's Hindu chanting, the Sons of Yahweh, and Brotha Nathaniel.

So if you don't like the direction that your Lutheran or Catholic church is going, try to find options within your tradition, like Missouri Synod. If you are are going to be a regular Amurrican converting to Russian Orthodoxy, or FDLS, or Norse Paganism, etc. it is just going to end up being you out on the corner next to the guys with the bean pies, inventing your own personal Yakoob legend to compete with theirs.



Jim Bowery said...

So if you don't like the direction that your Lutheran or Catholic church is going, try to find options within your tradition

The same can be said for those who don't like the direction the US Government is going with centralization of social policy in contravention to the 10th Amendment. Problem is you can't go anywhere to escape it. Moreover, you are barking up the wrong tree when you talk about "atheism". The more detailed the social policy enforced from the central government, the more theocratic, even if it is atheistic Communism that deifies the state and demands that you place your faith in it. So you _do_ have a dog in this fight, whether you like it or not. The sine qua non of religion is faith even if that faith is belief in the Frankfurt School or Das Kapital. Whether you "believe" it or not, you are not omniscient. Your every action involves an act if not leap of faith.

Authenticity religion starts with the individual's relationship to the mystery called life -- taking action in the face of the unknown and thereby expressing one's faith.

DissidentRight said...

Jig: try to find options within your tradition

Wise words. Institutional Christianity (in America, anyway) is so schismatic that you can pretty much always find a dissident congregation of your tradition within driving distance, although it might be a test of your commitment. (I drive the better part of an hour to go to my confessional Missouri Synod church.)

Even moving around within the Western church is challenging, if you’re say comparing non-denominationalists to Papists. Not to toot my own horn, but confessional Lutheran churches are a pretty good bridge between the papists and the extreme elements of the Reformation, which is valuable if you’re looking for a connection to historical Western Christianity and like the high church style, but aren’t ready to commit to purgatory, gay priests, and the Council of Trent.

Jim: Authenticity religion starts with the individual's relationship to the mystery called life

At this point, all that’s relevant is authentic Christianity. And that starts with Jesus. It also ends with Jesus.

The same can be said for those who don't like the direction the US Government is going with centralization of social policy in contravention to the 10th Amendment. Problem is you can't go anywhere to escape it.

There are plenty of places in the broader Western church you can go to escape the liberals and the gays.

The more detailed the social policy enforced from the central government, the more theocratic, even if it is atheistic Communism that deifies the state and demands that you place your faith in it.

That’s true if you’re talking about Antifa, but most right-leaning atheists aren’t exactly on board with Antifa.

Jim Bowery said...

There may be plenty of places you can go to escape the liberals and gays but where do you go to escape the fanatical belief in the moral virtue of race replacement that has such a death grip on all of JudeoChristiandom cum Holocaustiandom that people are deprived of livelihoods if not imprisoned for speaking truth to power? You are welcome to your Missouri Synod of course and you may consider yourself lucky that is all your individual integrity requires of you, granting that it is intact. My own conception of Christ is as an individual whose individual integrity was intact and was willing to pay the price for it against "tradition". If the irony of me arguing with a Lutheran about individual integrity escapes you, then I can understand why you hold the opinions you do.

Feryl said...

This discussion about taking your butt elsewhere is why these problems have become what they are. The Left promotes team players who pass the initiation rites WRT global warming, intersectionality, white privilege, etc. There's camaraderie; sure, a lot of it's cynical and greed driven but at least they all cooperate together for the sake of the agenda remaining supreme. The Left oath dictates that you must stamp out any conservative opposition; indeed, you aren't even allowed to consider the other side's ideas for a moment.

Conservatives end up being harassed, shunned, exiled, etc. for obvious reasons but also because no other conservatives (who are often closeted) will come to the aid of the victim. Since the Right itself has so demonized "victim" culture since the later 70's, they end up not necessarily feeling all that perturbed by the campaign against conservatives, because, after all, we all get what we deserve. As long as the Right is glib about the concept of injustice, there will be no justice for conservatives. Telling people to just quit, or keep their mouth shut, in the face of bullshit, won't work in the long run. We lost New York City in the 1950's/1960's, then we lost Detroit in the 60's/70's, and on it goes. In the 2016 election, as I recall the only major city where Trump did fairly well was Pittsburgh. White traditionalists see the yuppies, foreigners, and blacks move in, and meekly cede places to the invaders. It seems to have gotten worse as the decades go by, given that even Democrats as recently as the early 90's floated nativist proposals.....While the GOP, fresh off the Reagan revolution, insisted that America's vast resources ought to be liberally shared....With the entire world.

It looks like, among Western Europeans, that the only real way to revive traditionalism is via economic catastrophe. West Euros are so individualistic to begin with, and it's even more amplified with conservatives. West Euro conservatives will simply not have the upper hand during times of relative resource abundance. It's going to take a collapse to make conservatives stop dreaming about living in the middle of nowhere will no-one will ever bother you.

It's been real eye opener to see Mike Cernovich turn into such a pussy. He recoils from the "alt-right". Indeed, post-Charlotesville The Left has largely won the narrative framing war, because the Left is adept at finding a talking point, sticking to it, and never apologizes or takes responsibility for it's excesses. Trump, not being a typical conservative, wisely uses a lot of these tactics. But most of those on the Right are uncomfortable with being ruthless and shameless about advancing the team's goals. Since so many Righties aren't about to join any team in the first place, well, there you go. Recently Cernovich and a couple others made the tired point that the Left never disavows it's nutcases, unlike the Right. Well, do you fight fair, or do you fight to win? Trump and the alt-right did manage to eventually extract a few apologies from the Dems for anti-fa non-sense, but that's only a minor battle in the larger war, and as long as so many veteran Righties cuck and refuse to learn how to win, there won't be much progress.

DissidentRight said...

Feryl,

for obvious reasons but also because no other conservatives (who are often closeted) will come to the aid of the victim.

Well, we’re working on changing that. http://voxday.blogspot(.)com/2018/01/mailvox-they-dont-forget.html

It's been real eye opener to see Mike Cernovich turn into such a pussy. He recoils from the "alt-right”.

The Fake Right. Ask yourself why Cernovich has never disavowed Vox Day, who is far more extreme than Dicky Spencerpants. (Let’s not even talk about the Dread Ilk.)

Recently Cernovich and a couple others made the tired point that the Left never disavows it's nutcases, unlike the Right. 

Well, then I guess the Left will never disavow the national socialists.

Jim,

but where do you go to escape the fanatical belief in the moral virtue of race replacement

You don’t escape it. You fight it.

My own conception of Christ is as an individual whose individual integrity was intact and was willing to pay the price for it against "tradition”.

Wouldn’t it just be easier to conceive of Christ the way the Apostles, Evangelists, and Early Church conceived of him? As 1) God the Son, who 2) died for the sins of the world and 3) rose on the third day?

If the irony of me arguing with a Lutheran about individual integrity escapes you

That’s a new one for me. I understand the original “Lutherans” were willing to fight and die for their own individual integrity.

Audacious Epigone said...

Feryl,

Trump fights and so Trump wins, because caught in the open field, these media personalities are all Glass Joes. A great example of this is Jared Taylor's obliteration of Jorge Ramos--it's more thorough than Jordan Peterson's takedown of that shrew.

This discussion about taking your butt elsewhere is why these problems have become what they are. The Left promotes team players who pass the initiation rites WRT global warming, intersectionality, white privilege, etc.

I think you're getting at Jim's meta point.

Recently Cernovich and a couple others made the tired point that the Left never disavows it's nutcases, unlike the Right

Indeed. "Trump had to disavow Nazis so Hillary should disavow Communists!" Sigh, this has all been tried a generation ago. I remember bits and pieces of it listening to Rush Limbaugh in the nineties. That's all guys like Ben Shapiro are--the next iteration of Rush (and Rush deserves a lot more credit for trailblazing).

Saint Louis,

Ha!

MattW,

In the course of putting this post together I stumbled across the fact that Mormons do the thing that matters most quite well (or found confirmation of as much, more accurately).

Tashkent,

Yeah, the hemorrhaging is pretty bad for all mainline Protestant denominations, and Episcopalians are among the worst hit.

IHTG,

Heh.

Anon,

It's debatable of course, but I'd classify Mormons as Christians before I would Unitarians. Maybe when it was Monophysite, but not anymore.

Wency,

Yeah, it's the same across the pond (actually probably even worse in Britain).

Jim,

Barring direct threats of violence, doxxing, obvious bots, or obscenities that draw the censors, no comment will ever be deleted.

Dissident Right,

Can confirm the sissified nature of the ELCA, it's the religious denomination I was raised as.

The high church style of Episcopalianism is one of the things I enjoyed most my first couple of times with the Episcopalians. Look under the hood, though... and, well, gays are drawn to pomp I guess.

The Russian Ortho-Bot,

Had a good friend from high school over a few months ago who converted from the 'non-denominational' congregation he grew up in. He's a big Ross Douthat fan (they exist!). It's not only what surrounds the identity, like Episcopalian faggotry vs Orthodox traditionalism, it's also the nature of the services that he enjoys much more than the contemporary services in many mainline denominations that are geared entirely towards women.

Feryl said...

"The Fake Right. Ask yourself why Cernovich has never disavowed Vox Day, who is far more extreme than Dicky Spencerpants. (Let’s not even talk about the Dread Ilk.)"

I stopped following Cernovich on Twitter months ago as his schtick became more standard/generic. He used to be a source for leaks from anti-globalists within the White House, then those people were fired. After they got fired, Cernovich seems to have decided to remain an insider, so to speak, by cozying up to whoever is left in White House. He used to regularly call out the Pentagon elite for being Islam apologists and clinging to dated foreign policy, but he doesn't really do that anymore.


I used to think Cernovich was a new sort of warrior for a novel thing, populist conservatism, but I was wrong. He's yet another guy who just wants to play it safe and make a decent chunk of money. And let's face it, with the possible exception of Pat Buchanan it's nearly impossible to remain a mainstream conservative if you regularly support populism and isolationism. You'd hope that rising Right leaders in the Trump era would transition to sticking to their guns on opposition to GOP orthodoxy WRT trade, corporate taxes, health care, and war mongering, but maybe Trump's own inability to 86 some of these dumb ideas has discouraged the Right from beating these drums.

And the "gorilla mindset" hogwash, is anyone asking for that? You can't help but think his initial success at supporting Trump became a vehicle for self-promotion. I don't see Ann Coulter trying to sell some kind of goofy self-help/self-actualization philosophy which seems way out of date (as Boomers age out of being able to control the culture/fashion, this kind of BS has gradually faded from relevance).

Feryl said...

". I remember bits and pieces of it listening to Rush Limbaugh in the nineties. "

In the early 90's, there was a lot of discontent with politics and the overall culture, which Limbaugh tapped into. But as that era faded, Limbaugh became just another stale ideologue and partisan. With the Trump make-over, Limbaugh at least seems to have remembered his own populist roots and was able to use them. We didn't get the my principles stuff from Limbaugh like we did with so many other conservative figures.

As for Shapiro et al, yeah we can only be told so many times that the Left doesn't have principles. But hey, they seem to have won a lot, haven't they? This kind of moralizing takes on a bitter, lamenting tone that feeds into a defeatist mentality. These people basically are saying up front that because we won't use the very tactics that have worked for the Left, then we're screwed. Let's all flee to the hills, wait for the barbarians to show up in our neighborhood, then flee out again, rinse wash repeat.

Dan said...

Feryl,

Cernovich is fighting the battle where it counts, in the trenches day to day. He may not be perfect but who is?

Something dramatic happened on Nov 8, 2016. Trump won of course, but a corollary of that is that the optimum conservative strategy changed completely.

The dissident strategy looked like the way to go when out of power. Be loud, upset people with truth bombs, and maybe they will get sense.

In power, you need to be stable and not crazy.

I used to consider myself alt-right before the alt-Reich ruined the label. What a bunch of F-tards. Gee, lets wrap ourselves in the worst brand known to human history and then go around trying to hug people and ruin everyone by association. Screaming F tha Joos and praising Hitler is up there with raping children in public as a PR move. Most American conservatives see the WWII generation that kicked butt in Europe as the greatest people ever. Nobody gets more lust from conservatives than an elderly WWII vet complete with a vet hat that says where they served. If the old fogie landed in France, conservatives will look agape eyes full of tears like they are watching Jesus descend to Earth on a cloud.


Anonymous said...

Dan,

Cernovich and Posobiec are loose cannons at best, and outright controlled opposition at worst. Their previously held "non-interventionism" disappeared as soon as the checks from (Mercer? or Thiel?) cleared. Both are shilling for Neo-Zionist expansionism, and not for an immigration moratorium.

Anonymous said...

Feryl,

Shaprio is not paid to advocate for conservatism, he's the last neocon that still has a constituency on the traditional right. He's paid to do the same thing that Conservatism Inc has done since Robert Taft was blocked at the 1952 Convention: Advocate Internationalism over the Traditional American Foreign Policy.

DissidentRight said...

Feryl,

My only concern re: Cernovich is the false charge that he attacks the Alt-Right. The fact that he promotes Vox Day, who is easily one of the most extreme members of the Alt-Right, refutes that charge. Whatever else he does or doesn’t do, says or doesn’t say, promotes or doesn’t promote, I don’t care.

AE,

I can’t speculate on the historical relationship between gays and high church, but confessional Lutherans trend strongly towards high church mostly for reasons of tradition, but also to make a stand against boomer non-denominational Church Growth culture.

many mainline denominations that are geared entirely towards women.

Natural consequence of alpha males leaving the church. It’s a bit harder to be at the top of the social pecking order if you have to defend a socially discredited institution. Beta males, of course, only want to appease women.

In the case of the LCMS, there are still a substantial number of congregations that don’t permit women to vote, and a larger number don’t permit women to hold any significant congregational office. I attribute that entirely to LCMS institutional strength, but until Lutherans become alpha again we will continue to slide.

Dan,

I used to consider myself alt-right before the alt-Reich ruined the label.

I’m not giving up the term, it just requires you to point out that National Socialists calling themselves “unicorns” and trannies calling themselves “women” doesn’t make it true.

By the way. What the hell happened to Paul Nehlen? Who the hell gabs a picture of Hitler flanked by HIMSELF and JESUS? Somebody who has totally given up any hope of ever winning any kind of public office in America, ever.

Dan said...

Anon --

"Both are shilling for Neo-Zionist expansionism"

Vox Day refers to you guys as alt-retard and I don't think he's wrong. Can't you just say expansionism? Can you complete one sentence without blaming everything on the Jews? I am as frustrated as anyone with quite a number of people who are Jewish. But plenty of insane open borders crap comes from all over the place. One of the most insane voices lately has Nancy Pelosi, one of those Jews who is Catholic. The center of neoconservative warmongering in Congress is John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio, with the Bush family close behind. All crypto Jews?

Cernovich a globalist shill? More retard talk.

(1) One of Cernovich's very latest retweets is against military interventionalism in North Korea. (2) He was ready to give up on Trump when it looked like he might go to war in Syria. (3) Another new tweet is an extremely anti-globalist Ben Garrison cartoon.

A big reason the alt-Reich is not of the right, among hundreds, is that they lie all the time, like SJWs, about things that can be really easily checked.


Anonymous said...

Dan,

Cernovich and Posobiec were at one time openly endorsing a white identity politics. Now they are palling around with leftists like Brad Manning and Jared Holt. Cernovich admitted to sexual assault, and Posobiec has been exposed as an adulterer.

Vox Day is a megalomaniac that accepts nothing less than unconditional loyalty. Dissident politics is home to many entryists seeking to paper over issues in their personal lives. We need a clearly defined organizational hierarchy, and we also need to displace both grifters and thots.

The Alt Right wasn't behind the carpet bombing of Lebanon in 2006. And they didn't write the Yinon Plan and A Clean Break. Neo-Zionists in Israel, along with their neoconservative relatives in the West, have been banging on the door for American ground troops in Syria, and an American ground invasion of Iran. That's on them, not us.

The IDF has the military capacity to end the Syrian war in two weeks. The war has persisted because they want Syria to collapse so as to weaken Hezbollah. The IDF only attacks Syrian government forces, they have never attacked ISIS or Al Nusra.


Dan said...

Anon --

"Cernovich and Posobiec were at one time openly endorsing a white identity politics."
Cerno is married to a Persian and Posobiec's Poland was the victim of Hitler.

The reason everyone has to dissociate from the alt-retards is that their entire strategy as far as I can tell is to smear themselves in poo and then try to run around hugging everybody. And they feel butt-hurt that everybody doesn't want a poo-covered hug.

"Gee if only we do a bunch of Nazi LARPing and Hitler worship on national teevee all of America will suddenly be persuaded. Why don't they understand? Didn't they see my Roman salute?"

On HBD blogs, if you look closely at the far left end of the Bell Curve, just to the left of Australian aboriginals and African pygmies, you will find alt-Reich LARPers.

DissidentRight said...

Anonymous,

We need a clearly defined organizational hierarchy
Versus…
Vox Day is a megalomaniac that accepts nothing less than unconditional loyalty.

Don’t ask for a hierarchy and then complain when the men at the top slap the rabble back into line and eject the deadweight and traitors. What exactly do you think you owe the leaders if not unconditional loyalty and obedience?

The Alt-Right isn’t hard. Don’t be dishonest. Don’t be a retard. Don’t be a socialist. Don’t attack men who outrank you, don’t “correct” men who outrank you, and don’t expect men who outrank you to care about your opinion.

Cernovich and Posobiec were at one time openly endorsing a white identity politics. Now they are

There is no universe in which you are going to outrank Vox Day, Cerno, Milo, Posobiec, etc. There is no universe in which you are somehow going to control them or displace them. They are your superiors, and what they do is none of your business. If you want to be independent, fine. No one cares if you follow them, let alone approve of them, but you can be reasonable well assured that if you do something stupid and they notice, they will call you out. And you can also be well assured that if SJWs and the MSM can’t beat them in a fight, you won’t either.

Dan said...

Dissident Right wrote of Paul Nehlen,
"Who the hell gabs a picture of Hitler flanked by HIMSELF and JESUS? Somebody who has totally given up any hope of ever winning any kind of public office in America, ever."

Right. If he isn't being paid by Media Matters, he sure is acting like it.

Audacious Epigone said...

I saw the tweet with the prince of England and his mulatto wife but not an image with Hitler.

I see it now. Stupid, and unfortunate. The next step is a politician that does for identitarianism in the US what Ron Paul did for libertarianism here. Thought Nehlen had a shot at being that. But it's clear that the Nazi imagery has to go. It's totally counterproductive.

Feryl said...

The Left has won since Charlottsville....How do I know? Because the Right tears itself apart over semantics due to the Left successfully conflating the Alt-right, white nationalism, and white supremacy.

Back in the innocent days of, oh, 2015, the alt-right was a neutral term among conservatives and moderates. It didn't really mean a whole to anyone, let alone become a liberal scare term. The alt-right was a concise term for (generally) young Trump supporters who didn't fit into either party's traditional camp. Simple. Easy to say and remember. Since nobody wants to be an "identitarian" (sounds too esoteric) or "populist-nationalist" (that's a mouthful), well, let's just be Alt-right. And though we all agreed on being "Trump supporters", that's too generic sounding to be useful for starting a movement and forming a united team.

The Left knew that a brand was being developed, and they could feel the heat. So they did as Leftists always do: they swarmed, lied, bullied, harrased, cajoled, manipulated, etc. as they went about trashing "the alt-right" as mouth breathing Nazis. And months after Charlottsville (which represented the nadir of alt-right PR), even people on the Right have assimilated Left talking points and hysteria about "Nazis", who form an extremely small minority of Trump supporters.

Here we are, and the Left has won a major battle: discrediting and dividing a nascent conservative movement that could have stood toe to toe with the Leftist equivalent.

Got it? The Right for the last 40 or so years has been so quick to police it's behavior and image that it enables the Left to tighten it's grip on more and more things.

All of the above labels (Trump supporter/voter, Alt-Right, white nationalist, identitarian, etc.) have been blended together interchangeably, because nobody on the Right consistently sticks up for their team-mates. Muh principled conservative and nerdy libertarians are the only acceptable forms of Right identity, precisely because the Left knows they won't put up a good fight.

Feryl said...

"Cernovich and Posobiec were at one time openly endorsing a white identity politics. Now they are palling around with leftists like Brad Manning and Jared Holt. Cernovich admitted to sexual assault, and Posobiec has been exposed as an adulterer.

Vox Day is a megalomaniac that accepts nothing less than unconditional loyalty. Dissident politics is home to many entryists seeking to paper over issues in their personal lives. We need a clearly defined organizational hierarchy, and we also need to displace both grifters and thots."

None of these people mean anything to me anymore (and V-day never did anything for me to begin with). They spend too much time being worried their image, their persona, and not enough time focusing on results. Hello, Cernovich boasts about his "gorilla mindset". That's Gen X tuff guy posturing crossed with doofy Boomer self-help gimmickry. Nobody cares, Mikey. The Left literally says BAMN (by any means necessary) to achieve it's goals. There's no individuality, no posturing, no self-reflection, no drive to look better than the other guy; all that matters is getting results.

Granted, I used to admire Cernovich when he had good sources in the White house. Then the "alt-right" was purged from the WH by June of '17, and Cernovich doesn't have any "controversial" sources left. Cernovich should've stuck to his guns and continued to pound on the elite Right for not having more balls and for clinging to dated BS, but nope. I'm sure he says something interesting every once in a while, but I stopped paying attention in the summer when he seemed to get softer on the establishment Right.

BTW, the Left is basically a hive in which most of the people are warriors who'll do anything to protect the queen. No wonder they win. The Right gets hung-up on individual personalities and can't ever seem to just drop the insecurities, and the struggle for the "heart" of the Right, to get on with actual combat with the Left. We don't a queen, we don't have a hive. We just have our own personas, gimmicks, etc. and don't really get how to scale these things up to a greater group level that would allow us to do better.

Feryl said...

"https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2018/02/14/republican-senator-ron-johnson-tells-president-trump-it-makes-no-sense-to-try-and-bring-back-high-labor-manufacturing-jobs/"

HA

A Midwestern politician saying that America doesn't need more manufacturing is like an inner-city Democrat saying that too much money is spent on public schools.

They don't call it the Stupid Party for nuthin'.

Dan said...

"So they did as Leftists always do: they swarmed, lied, bullied, harrased, cajoled, manipulated, etc. as they went about trashing "the alt-right" as mouth breathing Nazis."

They got a lot help in the trashing by Nazi LARPers and Daily Stormer types that march around playing the part. And worse, while doing all that retarded LARPing, they want to dance like monkeys for the media and claim to speak as the true representative voice of the true right. Those guys are to the right what antifa is to the left, maladjusted losers whose job seems to be to scare away all the normies.

I thought the Nazi label was just defamation by the left and then I heard Andrew Anglin debate Vox Day. Anglin cannot string two sentences together without screaming about THA JOOS!! This is not intelligent analysis and does not have anything to do with the long intellectual posts of Curtis Yarvin and many others and the data driven work at this blog and others.

When I heard that they marched around chanting 'Jews will not replace us' in Charlottesville, I thought that was just a smear and that they were really chanting 'you will not replace us.' Nope, they really were chanting that. It is as if all the painstaking work of many great minds is just to be discarded and replaced with a single word.

If the only word in you vocabulary is 'Jews', maybe the Nazi label isn't that far off.


Dan said...

"even people on the Right have assimilated Left talking points and hysteria about "Nazis", who form an extremely small minority of Trump supporters."

(1) It doesn't help that they are running around trying to embarrass all nationalists with their foolishness before a happily obliging media acting like they represent everyone.

https://www.theonion.com/white-supremacist-tired-after-long-day-of-interviews-wi-1822818329

(2) The situation is unfortunately not comparable on the right and the left because the left dominates media. If it were comparable then Senator Mendendez' pedo crimes would have driven him instantly out of office. Instead, nobody even knows. Meanwhile, the media works to spotlight the dumbest Nazi LARPer in America. So yeah, unfortunately the right needs to deal with the idiots in a way that the left doesn't.




DissidentRight said...

Feryl,

Left successfully conflating the Alt-right, white nationalism, and white supremacy.

They had inside help. From the Alt-Retards.

Dan,

Right. If he isn't being paid by Media Matters, he sure is acting like it.

I don’t believe Nehlen is or ever has been a shill. He’s at least modestly wealthy, from my understanding. He just need to lay low for a while and spend some time reading Vox Day.

AE,

Thought Nehlen had a shot at being that. But it's clear that the Nazi imagery has to go. It's totally counterproductive.

Using it for mockery is one thing, but you can’t mock someone for calling you a Nazi if you actually use Nazi regalia. It’s annoying because there is no way Nehlen is any kind of Nazi or socialist.

The irony is that the very reason the Right gave up nationalism and became cucked is because of white civic nationalism. Becoming nationalist again means accepting that Yankees ≠ Southerners ≠ Appalachians ≠ Midwesterners ≠ Minnesotans…

Though once you accept that, it becomes obvious why blacks, hispanics, Jews, etc. are even less compatible with us than we are all with each other.

Feryl said...

"(2) The situation is unfortunately not comparable on the right and the left because the left dominates media. If it were comparable then Senator Mendendez' pedo crimes would have driven him instantly out of office. Instead, nobody even knows. Meanwhile, the media works to spotlight the dumbest Nazi LARPer in America."

Funny, AE and myself seem to be the only ones pointing out what should be obvious: The Left are bullies, who will crack under sustained counter attacks because bullying tactics is all they know at this point. But since Leftists form massive teams of bullies who share a common goal, the only way for the Right to be effective is to join ranks and stop the preening about which particular Right niche you happen to belong to. But that requires unique conditions that come and go.

The Right's arguments work better during times of a siege type mentality, e.g. during crime waves, during times of legitimate military threats, and during times of tremendous economic distress. These crises embolden those on the Right to dig their heels in and not relent. When these things aren't palpable, the Right can seem out of touch and feckless....And the Right itself loses confidence. If Nixon hadn't botched Watergate, we'd have had 24 consecutive years of GOP presidents. Why? Crime was sky high from about 1967-1994 (Clinton didn't receive a plurality and had to pledge toughness on crime), while Russia was legitimately threatening in the 1970's and early 80's (relations thawed by 1985, and lo and behold Bush 1 in 1988 would be the first Republican to lose Oregon and Washington state in ages)

Right now things aren't "heavy" enough for the GOP to do THAT well.

BTW, Dan, I dunno what your age is, but I'm not really old enough to remember most of the 80's. Yet if you watch movies from back then, even Hollywood wasn't naive enough to try and tell Middle America that criminals and pervs were "misunderstood" victims of circumstance. Too many people knew robbery/rape/assault victims, and far too many streets seemed dangerous. People were utterly fed up criminals, and often blamed the civil rights revolution for creating soft judges and sleazy defense lawyers who enabled crime. It's essentially a different world we now live in. Lamenting the size of the prison population has only been made possible by Millennials and Gen Z keeping their hands to themselves, vis a vis Boomers and X-ers.

Conservatives are still just too secure, too comfortable relative to finances and civil security, to cut the crap and fight back as a unit. And during more traumatic times, the Left itself dials things down. The mainstream Left cut back in the 70's-early 90's, lest they be accused of being too sympathetic to criminals, invaders, and perverts. Hell, they even sponsored more pieces of tough on immigrant legislation in the early 90's then the GOP did! On a similar level, a fair number of Democrats were hawkish towards Russia and the commies during the cold war. But similar to how a period of economic and civil security in the 50's primed the pump for Left over-reach in the 60's, the lack of a strong foreign enemy over the last 30 years and low crime rates over the last 15-20 years gave us the Obama-Trump era in which the Left has become mindlessly aggressive and brash.

I wish I remembered the study/article, but researchers have found that peace and prosperity in the West in particular are associated with rapid cultural changes. Since X-ers and Millennials at the moment are in a fairly tough financial spot, we are at least seeing some resistance....Though similar to how liberals were largely victorious in the 1960's on account of not enough of the public feeling sufficiently threatened by novel ideas, I have a hunch that we just aren't going to see a ton of reactionary success in the current era.

Feryl said...

"The irony is that the very reason the Right gave up nationalism and became cucked is because of white civic nationalism. Becoming nationalist again means accepting that Yankees ≠ Southerners ≠ Appalachians ≠ Midwesterners ≠ Minnesotans…"

Right, too many people on the Right don't even want to be on the same team as their neighbors, let alone join the state team, the region team, the national team, the global team, and so on.

The Left will accept any recruit to the cause (pls stop the with the Dems R the real racists cucking, and that includes you too Alex Jones). It's disengenous to say that "liberals never rub elbows with the rabble". Conservatives are snobbier and more aloof, basically by definition (why else do so many Righties bitch about "collectivism"? Presumably most TrueCons really do think they are smarter and more entitled than anyone else, given how many want to give up on humanity and go to the mountains and and polish their weapons......Which seldom are ever actually used for the cause. The Left's sheer number of young and hungry thugs beat out the macho Righties.....Until triggers are actually pulled. The Left is terrified of being attacked by disciplined and powerful conservatives. The Kent State police shootings did have a chilling effect on Left protest culture, which began to wane soon after. BTW, those in urban areas (even the "nice" ones) are going to attacked by criminals more frequently than conservatives in smaller pop. areas. Ask Matt Yglesias. I remember a 1980's movie review where the NYC reviewer talked about looking into the eyes of a mugger. And a common 1980's quip was that liberals were conservatives who haven't been mugged yet. The cheapshot that liberals gutlessly avoid bad areas just doesn't jibe. It seems like projection on the part of conservative who like to think they're the real tough guys.

The war on cops and conservatives is ennabled by conservatives being weenies who refuse to use their latent power and skills. It's not the 1920's, or 1980's anymore, when gritty justice and vigilantism was celebrated.

AlsoAltRight said...

I continue to use the term Alt-Right as well. Alt-Right basically means a Right-leaning person who is tired of lying to appease Leftists. That's all. The truth bombs work, but the conspiratorial Joo-baiting shit is infantile and obnoxious. I am sure that a good fraction of this is counteroperatives from the Left. I've been reading HBD / anti-Feminist scholarship on blogs for a full decade now, and the truth has finally gotten its boots on and started being disseminated on alternative media platforms. (BTW : In that whole decade, the Nazis were almost entirely absent and shunned from discourse in the respectable data-centric blogs where the Alt-Right was born.) Not having to debase yourself by lying constantly is appealing to the general public.

Then we suddenly get the most toxic explosion of imbeciles endorsing Nazism, anti-Joo hysteria, and other unbelievably idiotic behavior. I get that Jews are their own ethnic group with properties & interests that differ from Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics, and there's definitely a lot of nepotism & power brokering in the Jewish world that is worth criticizing. The attempts at slapping Stars of David on everyone and trying to discredit everyone who isn't a blatant Nazi-wannabe who blames their own failure in life on Joos is pathetic.

Figures like Jordan Peterson are doing God's work in promoting Alt-Right Truths and keeping the Nazis locked in the basement where they belong, but goddamn if it isn't sad how hard Nazis work to destroy the intellectual work of decades (centuries even) with poo-flinging.

Feryl said...

Stop the hysteria about "Nazis".

The Left during the '16 election cycle moblilized legions of BAMN anti-fa zealots and disgruntled foreigners to protest, march, bitch, shout, scream, vandalize, harass, intimidate, and assault. 99% of the time the behavior was ignored or excused by the mainstream Left.

A minority of violent incidents was initiated by those on the Right; for that matter, "Nazis" or "KKK" rarely, if ever, infiltrated Left-wing events and marches to cause trouble. Most Right protesters at liberal events only went as far as trolling speakers with interruptions. They didn't rush the stage, attack cops or security personnel, or damage property.

Nearly all Rightists who went to public events intended to be non-violent. Overwhelmingly, it was the Left who organized for the purpose of, in effect, terrorism against Orange Hitler and those who supported him.

Since the Right sucks ass at PR (not even being able to take a cue from Trump who understands marketing, evidently) the Right has allowed itself to be defined and judged by an extremely small number of possibly astro-turfed Nazis who merely say stupid things. To most of the Left, literally anyone who supports Trump is now equated with a Nazi. Meanwhile, the Left adamantly opposed anyone on the Right, including Trump, for ever comparing Anti-fa with Nazis ("false equivalance").

Do ya get it now? The Right is so quick to demonize itself that it allows the Left to frame everything to it's liking. Leftists displayed far more thuggish and stupid behavior since 2015, yet most people do not consider "Hillary voter" and "anti-fa thug" to be interchangeable.

You can't win by submitting to the enemy's PR. The Right, once and for all, needs to simply ignore whatever idiots there may be giving us a bad name. It works awfully well for the Left when the Left seems to be winning. As long as public support of Trump is taboo and incites vandalism from the Left, the Left clearly is winning. Period. If you read Scott Adams, you'd know that the corporate world and the Clinton/Post-Clinton Left employs "marketing strategists" who are skilled at manipulation. You're going to have terrible PR if you constantly wallow in shame over every single mistake your side ever made.

Dan said...

Feryl:

AlsoAltRight nails it.

For many years, the real alt-right, including this blog built a massive intellectual foundation of truth. Then some imbecilic kids ruin everything by their Nazi larping. They even claim the name of Alt-Right while having not 1/1000 of the intellectual foundation.

"You're going to have terrible PR if you constantly wallow in shame over every single mistake your side ever made."

No, genius, you'll have terrible PR if some morons wrap themselves in swastikas and Hitler worship and get within 500 feet of you. Feryl, you seem to put your age at around 30. Well for most Americans, and that goes triple for the older Americans that do all of the voting, the Nazis were the worst people in all of history.

Those morons need to be chained to radiators in basements until such time as civilization either collapses or is saved.

Tolerating them as they dance around you doing Seig Heils is liable to get you covered in their poo.

"Right, too many people on the Right don't even want to be on the same team as their neighbors, let alone join the state team, the region team, the national team, the global team, and so on."

This is 4G warfare. Do you even know what that is? Anyone who brings such horrible PR as those alt Retard LARPers is like a soldier that only fires on his own side. In battle someone like that would be shot as the traitor that they are.

These alt Reich fools claim they need to be accepted as they smear themselves in poo because 'we're on the same side.' F that. Meanwhile, they attack and smear conservatives like crazy.

These morons have accomplished nothing but harm, both in their own loser lives and for the whites they pretend to stand for.


DissidentRight said...

Feryl,

We don’t give a damn about Nazis or anything they did (or didn’t do). We don’t care.

Also, we are not Nazis and we do not appreciate people try to revive idiotic Nazi ideology.

Right, too many people on the Right don't even want to be on the same team as their neighbors

Whites “weren’t on the same team” long before the xenos invaded America. Yankees have been studiously grinding the Southern people into the dirt for how many generations? Temporary alliances to remove the xenos are good, but having accomplished that I have absolutely no interest in permitting Yankees to resume their political dominance of North America. Haven’t they screwed the rest of us enough? I want to live in the America of the Founding Fathers. Not the America of Lincoln.

why else do so many Righties bitch about "collectivism”

Probably because “collectivism” is socialism.

Look, this is pretty simple. Anyone who wants the white race to survive needs to join the REAL Right. Those who either refuse to join, or actually attack the Right, are part of the problem.

The Right is so quick to demonize itself

When the Right demonizes Nazis, we are demonizing THE LEFT.

The Right, once and for all, needs to simply ignore whatever idiots there may be giving us a bad name. […] You're going to have terrible PR if you constantly wallow in shame over every single mistake your side ever made.

Everyone makes mistakes occasionally. But if the idiot brigade intends to keep making the same mistakes over and over and over, despite repeated correction, you might get the idea that they’re not actually on your side.

Corvinus said...

Dissident Right..

"The Episcopalians are simply reaping what the sowed over a hundred years ago. The Social Gospel is Jesus-flavored Social Justice."

The Social Gospel is the Word of God, as evident by Isaiah 1:17--Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

"At this point, all that’s relevant is authentic Christianity. And that starts with Jesus. It also ends with Jesus."

"Authentic Christianity", now there is virtue signaling at its finest. Religion is the lightning rod for redemption and damnation. Ever since Jesus died for our sins, adherents to the faith have used the Bible for their own designs, whether it be for good or for illicit purposes. There have been fierce debates by theologians and schisms caused by what is and what is not Christianity. In the end, the people of a church are going to demonstrate their faith in the manner ordained by God, who will Judge us all.

"The fact that he promotes Vox Day, who is easily one of the most extreme members of the Alt-Right, refutes that charge."

Cernovich is a brand. Ultimately, he is part of the Alt Right for the fame and fortune. It was clear from the jump that he would use the platform to market himself. Same thing for Vox Day, who employs Cernovich. No enemies to the Right, they say. Buy my books and wear my t-shirts. They both talk a good game, but they are looking to make a financial windfall along the way.

"but where do you go to escape the fanatical belief in the moral virtue of race replacement"

Whites are not being "replaced". Talk about being fanatical here.

Z Blog...

"It is remarkable just how gay the Episcopal church has become in the last couple of generations. Given that the Episcopal Church used to be the faith of the American ruling class, it is probably symbolic of something not obvious to me. Perhaps it is the final humiliation the new ruling class is inflicting on their vanquished predecessors."

And just how does this "gayness of the Episcopal Church" directly impact you?


You don’t escape it. You fight it.

Audacious Epigone said...

"Nazism led to the worst internecine fighting the West has ever experienced. It may have been civilizationally suicidal--I suppose the jury is still out--but if it wasn't a death blow, it was close. Killing tens of millions of Europeans is not a legacy to be celebrated."

That's pretty much my canned response to Nazi-anything now. I think it's important to reframe our disassociations in a way that strengthens our message. Nazism? Nah, you're nuts. Killing Europeans is not what we're about.

Corvinus,

We are several steps on the road to South Africa. Run an images search on South African farm murders, look at your children, and imagine that they're grandchildren could be in a similar situation a few generations down the road.

Corvinus said...

AE...

"We are several steps on the road to South Africa. Run an images search on South African farm murders, look at your children, and imagine that they're grandchildren could be in a similar situation a few generations down the road."

That's really a scare tactic. Remember, Generation Z generally in favor of inclusion and diversity. They are the key.

http://www.thedrum.com/news/2017/01/26/new-gen-z-study-explains-pivotal-generation-marketers-and-brands

https://www.forbes.com/sites/deeppatel/2017/09/21/8-ways-generation-z-will-differ-from-millennials-in-the-workplace/#57b2da9e76e5

Now, I imagine the Alt Right has a ton of propagandizing, I mean properly informing Generation Z of their "anti-white attitudes" and that they must get "woke".

And, of course, America is not South Africa, and South Africa is not America. The U.S. has had 50 years to digest Civil Rights laws and learn to get along better between the races (certainly it has been a rocky road), but South Africa is in its infancy when it comes to the process. Don't forget, the racial history of the two nations is dissimilar in a number of ways.

Apartheid divided up South Africa into "homelands" divided along racial lines. Not surprising, the prime land was taken for whites, and the major industrial and resource areas also kept in the hands of the white-only government. American blacks had opportunities to work in factories and farms and mines. And while a black person would get hassled for being in a "white neighborhood" or be prohibited by law from entering a whites-only establishment in America, in apartheid South Africa a black person would be arrested for being in a White Zone of the country without an internal passport. Apartheid was also more rigid in that it had multiple official races vs just white/colored in the States, with a minority group (whites) oppressing a majority group (blacks).

The point is that some on the Alt Right assume a racial battle royal is imminent, say by 2033--a futuristic "hate of the Saxon" group rising against the ever angry, low-time preference "darkie hordes". Let the break up of the United States commence!

I'll wait for the movie to come out...

DissidentRight said...

Corvinus,

The Social Gospel is the Word of God, as evident by Isaiah 1:17--Learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression; bring justice to the fatherless, plead the widow's cause.

No, the Social Gospel is the attempt to instantiate the kingdom of heaven on earth, in flagrant violation of Christ’s declaration: “My kingdom is not of this world.” It puts the true Gospel (‘for God so loved the world’) on the back-burner in favor of state-managed “social progress”. It is a disastrous misunderstanding of the Church’s mission.

There have been fierce debates by theologians and schisms caused by what is and what is not Christianity.

They will continue until the end. If you won’t acknowledge the poisoned doctrinal roots of the Social Gospel, then accept its rotten fruit: American socialism, the Great Society, Civil Rights, Prohibition, women’s liberation.

They both talk a good game, but they are looking to make a financial windfall along the way.

I wonder how exactly one subverts, destroys, and replaces liberal institutions…without a competing institution capable of turning a profit.

Sid said...

Summer 2017 showed us how to handle Nazi imagery and rhetoric:

1. You can "ironically" post Nazi and KKK memes on the internet, but you can't LARP as them offline. Trump weathered Charlottesville about as well as he could have and the incident exposed antifa to more normies, but the backlash hit the online alt-right hard. If posting the memes pushed the boundaries of what was acceptable, then taking them into the real world greatly constricted what we could do.

2. The movie Dunkirk showed that the Allies also trigger SJWs. It was hilarious seeing them bitch and moan about how the ones actually fighting the Nazis were white men.

To be blunt about it, it was white men from the USSR, the British Empire, and the USA who annihilated the Nazis.

The meme "My grandfather didn't storm Normandy so that it would become a Muslim country later" meme is 100x more devastating than anything even playfully pro-Nazi. It makes us have some perspective: the people who incinerated the Nazis and buried them under rubble were deplorable shitlords by today's standards.

Corvinus said...

"No, the Social Gospel is the attempt to instantiate the kingdom of heaven on earth, in flagrant violation of Christ’s declaration: “My kingdom is not of this world.” It puts the true Gospel (‘for God so loved the world’) on the back-burner in favor of state-managed “social progress”. It is a disastrous misunderstanding of the Church’s mission."

No, the Social Gospel is an extension of God's will--"The Social Gospel does not confine the tasks linked to the Kingdom of God within religious institutions and their explicit activities. It embraces all dimensions of human life and implies the transformation of the social order. Alongside religious structures, there are families, economic organizations of various kinds, nongovernmental groups, and the State. The Kingdom is potentially in all of these. Faith communities are indispensable to the religious education of humanity and to the conservation of religion, but the greatest future awaits religion in the public life of humanity.""

"They will continue until the end. If you won’t acknowledge the poisoned doctrinal roots of the Social Gospel, then accept its rotten fruit: American socialism, the Great Society, Civil Rights, Prohibition, women’s liberation."

No, those things were righteous in the eyes of God to right particular wrongs.

In the end, God will judge. We look forward to that day!

Feryl said...

"why else do so many Righties bitch about "collectivism”

Probably because “collectivism” is socialism.

Look, this is pretty simple. Anyone who wants the white race to survive needs to join the REAL Right. Those who either refuse to join, or actually attack the Right, are part of the problem."

Contradiction. You can't bash "collectivism" and then expect anyone to join you and fight alongside you; by default you're saying that what each person wants ought to surpass the needs of the group. Getting results with consistent team work is going to require the Right to get over the taboo regarding collectivism. But that won't come easy unless we've got some serious threat laying siege to us.

It's precisely the most individualistic generation in history (the Boomers) who have catastrophically failed to hold the fort. Look it up; Boomers, even when 80% of America was still white and American born into the 1980's, disliked civic groups, disliked the idea of being a "company man", voted more infrequently than older generations, disliked unions, trashed the cities (using newly minted freeways to facilitate robberies) and then largely gave up on urban living. When Boomers "found Jesus" in the 80's, their consideration often extended to their immediate family (esp. their kids) but not much further than that. Boomers often claim that some mysterious force put society down the road we've been down, refusing to own up to many of the flaws many Boomers possess. It wasn't blacks, or big government, or dumb lawyers, or whatever that annihilated a once functional and peaceful society in the late 60's. It was in fact so many individual Boomers being abysmally behaved and irresponsible that did us in. GIs and Silents who supported liberal crime laws in the 50's and 60's didn't have a clue what that would do to a society in which, by 1970, the average age was something like 38 and those under 30 were the most crime prone and drug-addled generation in American history.

Gen X-ers inherited many of these character traits, yet X-ers are ambivalent about their abilities and worth, as one can tell from the still glaring absence of X-ers at the upper echelons of politics, academia, and the corporate world. It's as though X-ers are running out the clock on Boomers, figuring that there's little to gain from "getting involved" when the elder generation itself is such a stubborn pain in the ass. And nobody who meant anything ever told X-ers that they "changed the world (for the better)".

Feryl said...

"2. The movie Dunkirk showed that the Allies also trigger SJWs. It was hilarious seeing them bitch and moan about how the ones actually fighting the Nazis were white men."

The Boomer Jews who greenlight dozens of WW2 movies every year have got to be getting a little nervous.....There just aren't any favorable post-Obama ID politics angles to an event almost entirely about white guys, with the obvious exception of Japan, who themselves were run by an ethnic nationalist fascist, so you can't say they exceed the virtue of the "good" Allied white nations (quotes are used because Russia was our "friend" of convenience at the time).

Funny thing is that Vietnam, with it's integrated and somewhat black US fighting force, is more amenable to trendy ID politics than the stale pale male affair of Normandy et al. But Vietnam is a major embarrassment to the Boomer money men who run the entertainment industry, seeing as how:

1) We "lost"
2) Most mid-upper class whites (e.g., Jews) desperately avoided fighting in the war, which does not easily reconcile with Boomers becoming the most pro-war generation as time's gone by.
3) Supporting the US military state almost necessitates positive portrayals of US involved conflict; into the 80's Leftists heavily criticized the US military and foreign meddling by the US, but over the last 20+ years the Left has gradually shedded pacifism. "Leftist" Hollywood has become loath to do anything that would make people question war. And Vietnam is still unpopular and divisive.....To the point that since the early 90's almost no movies have been made about Vietnam. Wouldn't want to embarrass the Pentagon.

Feryl said...

BTW, remember how Steve Sailer frequently talks about the larger than you'd figure presence of Asians and Mexicans in 1970's American pop culture? As America gets less white and less black in many areas, it's as though Hollywood has become more insistent on actor demographics resembling America's 1960's general demographics. Granted, around 2010 we began to see greater pushes for almost every slice of the ID politics pie to get bigger as the white male slice shrunk. Still, the push to China pander seems more plausible as a reason for greater Asian casting than does any genuine appreciation for "proportional" representation in casts. And yet, how many iconic figures of pop culture have emerged over the last 10 years, who are Hispanic or Asian? None, really. Whereas the 70's gave us Bruce Lee and Cheech and Chong. Meanwhile, gruff and obvious Jews and Italians (not blue eyed pretty boys like Sinatra or Tony Curtis) like DeNiro, Dustin Hoffman, Al Pacino, and Stallone were "allowed" to have lots of big and iconic roles in the 70's.

As concern for authenticity has waned over the last 20 or so years, Hollywood begin to settle back into the 1940's-early 1960's mentality of sleazeball lech producers and casting agents targeting and exploiting human products from the Nordic factory. E.g., Hitchcock and his endless parade of blondes (one of whom was from Minnesota), or of course, Marilyn Monroe. And since effeminate males are more willing to sleep with producers, then there goes the working class/gruff/high school football player type actors. Audiences in the 70's and 80's didn't want generic, bland, and soft actors, and were more willing to accept actors with a strong personality and even look, which could be "ethnic". Thus a non-British foreigner (Schwarzenegger) became one of the most successful actors of the 80's. Frankly, a lot of the actors to emerge in the 70's and 80's seem kind of....Odd. In look, demeanor, voice, etc. I think that's because we've been conditioned over the last 20+ years to associate show-biz with ditzy blondes and Beiber types, who are blandly attractive and devoid of any real substance.

After Hours, a 1985 Scorsese movie, has an "ethnic" looking white guy as the lead character who's homely looking, and he spends most of the movie encountering other, often homely looking characters. And though the characters may look and act strange, nobody seems judgemental about it. Then 30 years later, in the Wolf of Wall Street, Scorsese casts Nordic Leo Dicaprio as a Jew! Scorsese's "house" actor going from homely and surly NY'er DeNiro to cosmopolitan Nordic pretty boy Leo says it all.

Audacious Epigone said...

Corvinus,

Most whites in South Africa have ancestors who've been there longer than the ancestors of most whites in America have been here. They took uninhabited land and made it productive. The Bantus who moved in later enjoyed the fruits of white civilization. During apartheid they had things much better than they could ever manage on their own. We're seeing confirmation of that fact yet again. Being a farmer in South Africa is now more dangerous than being a hood rat in a shithole like East St Louis or Haiti. The viciousness of the murders of these white farmers is staggering. Do an image search of it. You'll never be the same.

Vox Day is doing yeoman's work. The alt right is very fortunate to have someone like him on our side. These things have to be economically self-sustaining if they're going to be viable.

Sid,

Indeed. John Rivers' approach is the one to take.

Feryl,

The million dollar question is to what extent whites will comprehend the fact that everyone else is allowed in-group preference and they're using that in-group preference to dispossess whites, and, with this knowledge, to what extent they will then assert their own in-group preference.

Sid said...

Feryl,

WWII also works significantly better on screen than the Vietnam War does. WWII had massive armies, naval fleets, and air forces amassed against near-equals. There was an extreme amount of mobility - the Pacific Theater alone must have covered 1/10th of the planet, no exaggeration. It also had distinctive battles with lots of give-and-take, making for exciting, pitched experiences to watch on the big screen.

Vietnam was basically a never-ending guerrilla war in which Americans in uniform would ride around in helicopters and swift boats, and either hunt for the Vietnamese or get ambushed by them. You really don't need all that many movies about it before it starts blending together.

I saw Forrest Gump as a kid and no matter how good a Nam movie is, it never really feels all that different from the war sequences in Forrest Gump.

In contrast, I remember watching the German 1991 version of Stalingrad, the Russian Come and See, and the HBO movie Conspiracy within a year. They all feel ghastly but in their own distinctive way. And that's not counting movies like The Great Escape, The Guns of Navarone, and Twelve O'Clock High, which are more standard Hollywood movies but are riveting to watch and leave strong, distinctive memories in you.

Dunkirk and the aforementioned Stalingrad don't have very effective plots and characters. Mark Rylance's plot thread was the only one in Dunkirk I found myself emotionally invested in. But it didn't matter, because the situation presented in the movie was so gripping. Stalingrad had even less effective characters, but shows how cataclysmic and hellish the battle was that you've moved to numbness and pity. Even Pearl Harbor, which is an all around bad movie, still has battle sequences which left me in near-awe as a youngster.

Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, and Apocalypse Now are all great movies, but I feel like they exhausted the Vietnam War. The only movie I watched that felt all that different from Forrest Gump was The Ugly American, and that was set in the 1950s when the CIA was trying to manipulate the outcome behind the scenes.

Similarly, you can make lots of fantastic movies about Civil War battles, because you have larger-than-life leaders, huge, mobile armies, and intense battle sequences that can leave you in despair or exultation depending on how the director wants you to feel. Compare that with the American Revolution - HBO's John Adams series was great, but the war fighting itself tends to not be very exciting. Ditto WWI - All Quiet on the Western Front and Paths of Glory exhausted that war cinematically.

There are a lot of reasons why the War in Afghanistan and Iraq have barely been covered in cinema, but I think the long, drawn out guerilla campaigns and lack of movement after the first few months of the war are a major reason why Hollywood has largely avoided them.

AE,

What SJWs and antifa try to do is assert their political enemies believe in the same things as Nazis. No, we don't - we believe in many of the same things as those who killed the Nazis. The onus thus isn't on ourselves to explain why we're radical racist nutcases, but why they've drifted so far away from what was common sense in 1940s and 1950s America and Britain.

It's also triggering because it was those horrible Russian interlopers were the ones who bore the brunt of the Nazi menace and killed the bulk of them.

Audacious Epigone said...

Sid,

Whenever I'm around anti-Trumpers I know I've been doing a little routine where I search behind curtains and under tables wherever we meet. When they ask what I'm doing, I answer with an overwrought sense of determination that I'm looking for Russians. They mostly don't like it. There is nothing the left hates more than being mocked as unserious doofuses.

Feryl said...

Sid:

Many true crime researchers can't get big publishing houses to purchase books based on crimes in which no offender is caught and convicted. Similarly, Hollywood is uncomfortable with most non-WW2 war stories because in most wars there's less of a satisfying strategic and moral resolution then there was in WW2.

The lack of American revolution pics is odd. You don't need epic scale battles for inspiring action, and the military and political drama of the American Revolution ought to spark more movies. America-wise, we've only been involved in two wars with nearly no moral ambiguity from a goal stand point (not necessarily a tactics standpoint RE:dropping nukes): The American Revolution and WW2.

WW2 movies became somewhat less common in the 70's and 80's, and Vietnam related stuff ramped up in the late 70's, and then peaked in the 80's. Then after about 1992, characters seldom even reference Vietnam. In the 80's, it was common for movie characters to be 'Nam vets. The lack of epic scale battles in 'Nam don't explain why Hollywood (and the viewing public) around 1993 suddenly developed this kind of cowardice regarding Vietnam.....And it's not as if the relevance of a war that defined 1/2 of a generation (early Boomers) many of whom are still alive, and serves as an important lesson to this day, has really declined.

In the mid-80's, reportedly a lot of Boomer viewers practically stood up and cheered at the end of Rambo 2. Besides the in Vietnam movies, there also was a spate of rescue the POW movies (Uncommon Valor, Missing In Action, and Rambo 2) that were cathartic for a generation who felt that their contributions were never given the respect they deserved. Certainly not in the late 60's/early 70's, when those who served were often castigated as savages.

Uncommon valor intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY_iseZ2kJg
Note that filmakers in the 80's shot on vivid and bright film stock, but without grossly artificial color grading (like the orange and teal crap that's corrupted movies over the last 15 years) or harsh desaturation. The grass looks like grass. The annoying tendency to equate drabness with grit started in the mid 90's. In the late 60's-early 90's, men wore bright colors all the time and nobody thought it made them look like sissies. Also note that film music in the 70's and 80's was often melodic and majestic, even for "tough" movies. Modern film making is dreadful (flat dialogue, drab photography, shaky cam, dull music, etc.). Look up "ostinato" sometime. Over the last 20 or so years, many composers don't even bother with ostinato, which essentially means a distinctly melodic or rhythmic repeating figure. Without ostinato,music lacks anything that really is memorable and inspiring. No hook, so to speak.

Feryl said...

"Whenever I'm around anti-Trumpers I know I've been doing a little routine where I search behind curtains and under tables wherever we meet. When they ask what I'm doing, I answer with an overwrought sense of determination that I'm looking for Russians. They mostly don't like it. There is nothing the left hates more than being mocked as unserious doofuses."

You could also say that they're terrible sports, who need to get over the fact that they got their ass kicked. It wouldn't hurt to give a bi-partisan demonstration of what political sore losers we've become over the last 17 years. Democrats blamed Nader and Katherine Harris for losing the 2000 election, even though they naively let Clintonite Gore run in 2000. Some Republicans whined about Obama's birth certificate, when they should've been deriding McCain and Romney for being terrible candidates. We know, but don't need to tell liberals, that liberals on average are sorer losers, given that many Republicans did in fact correctly blame MCain and Romney for the GOP losing. Whereas liberals still adore Gore (on the Daily Howler blog, the writer still fixates on the media jobbing Gore, this after having 18 years to accept the fact that Gore from a personality and ideology standpoint was never going to garner enough support to be president)

Anyway, check this out: (Wiki somehow didn't scrub this from Al Gore's page during the Hillary-thon of the last several years)

"In addition, Hillary's candidacy for the open Senate seat in New York exacerbated the "three-way tensions evident in the White House since 1993", as "not only was Hillary unavailable as a campaigner, she was poaching top Democratic fund-raisers and donors who would normally concentrate on the vice president". In one instance "Hillary insisted on being invited [to a Los Angeles fundraiser for the vice president]—over the objections of the event's organizers", where the First Lady "shocked the vice president's supporters by soliciting donations for herself in front of Tipper".[81]"

Yep, she's been a shameless pig for decades.

Corvinus said...

AE--"Most whites in South Africa have ancestors who've been there longer than the ancestors of most whites in America have been here."

I would like to see numbers to verify your claim.

"They took uninhabited land and made it productive."

To the Europeans, the land was other than productive. In reality, South Africa was inhabited by pastoral herders who made it productive on their own terms. Not surprisingly, these ways of living was "uncivilized" in the eyes of Europeans.

"The Bantus who moved in later enjoyed the fruits of white civilization."

Being forced to work for pennies on the dollar and living in squalor hardly constitutes the "enjoyment of fruits".

"During apartheid they had things much better than they could ever manage on their own."

Patently false. A system of based on violent separation was imposed to the detriment of black Africans.

"Being a farmer in South Africa is now more dangerous than being a hood rat in a shithole like East St Louis or Haiti. The viciousness of the murders of these white farmers is staggering. Do an image search of it. You'll never be the same."

And what had caused these dangerous circumstances? An invasion from an outside source that instituted racial segregation for their own political and economic gain. Agriculture remains in the hands of the white descendants of colonial-era settlers. White farmers control 73 percent of arable land in the country compared with 85 percent when apartheid ended in 1994. Maybe South Africa descends into racial anarchy and breaks up into two separation nations, or maybe the people there overcome their racial strife. Time will tell.

But, assuredly, the United States is NOT South Africa, per the reasons I had already laid out.

"Vox Day is doing yeoman's work. The alt right is very fortunate to have someone like him on our side. These things have to be economically self-sustaining if they're going to be viable."

There is a difference between being "economically self-sustaining" and profiting handsomely by advocating a brand. He is very skillful in that regard.

Tashkent Lutsow said...

Feryl said,

in most wars there's less of a satisfying strategic and moral resolution then there was in WW2.

Nothing could be further than the truth. To defeat the Axis, the Allies had to join forces with the criminal Soviet union, NS Germany's strongest cobelligerent until Hitler outraced Stalin to the decision the other one outlived his usefulness.

I'm always baffled with how romantically Westerners perceive WW2. It must be because of the way it's presented in their education system and movies. WW2 gave us first weapons capable of destroying mankind and helped communism to expand further in Europe and Asia, enslaving millions of people, enabling murderous psychopaths like Mao and Pol Pot to come to power, and creating a decades long period of tension, anxiety, and fear about a possible third global conflict, which would make WW2 look parochial.

Feryl said...

I pointed out the nuke thing for a reason. I myself am not naive enough think that any war is neat and tidy.

From the perception of post-WW2 Westerners, WW2 is as close as it gets to one side being almost totally good and the other side being almost totally bad.

And btw, communist atrocities are poorly remembered by the West because much of the West (including latent Western country Japan) embraced or at least flirted with fascism, not communism. We've been conditioned to hate ourselves for political and/or ideological contributions to eugenics and such in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Most Gen X-ers and Millennials are far more well-versed in the history of nationalist/conservative excesses than they are in Left wing excesses.

But we're now seeing kind of a role reversal; now it's the West that's over-indulged in liberalism since the late 1980's, while Russia and China have state sponsorship of traditional values and political propaganda about the Motherland.

It's a shocking thing to contemplate, that a California Democrat in the 1980's wanted to ban homosexual immigrants, and that Spain, which once was run with an iron grip by Franco into the 1970's, now permits gay clubs and live sex shows.

Since America (and really the West as a whole) has gone further and further to the Left since we allied with the Soviets during WW2, Stalin has essentially gotten a free pass. The oft-told joke among (the apparently dwindling) Western conservatives is that Stalin had the right idea; it was just the execution that was off (pun intended).

Feryl said...

South Africa's whites are almost entirely Teutonic (Charlize Theron is the rule, not the exception), and Teutons have gone all-in on racial self-abasement over the last 70 years.

America has a lot of Slavic, Celtic, Italian, and yes, Jewish whites who aren't as capable of going full-cuck as modern Teutons are. Worth noting is that America still has a much less PC culture than Britain, Canada, and Germany/Scandinavia. As recently as the 1980's, non-Teutonic whites in the South and Mid-Atlantic were capable of enforcing racial boundaries/etiquette. And naturally, blacks are by a fair margin the worst behaved in the Midwest, which is the most Teutonic part of America.

Teutons made much of the world great since the industrial revolution, but each successive generation seems to have more insecurity than the last.

Audacious Epigone said...

Corvinus,

Your understanding of South African history is woefully incorrect. The Bantus did most of the conquering, and there is no conceivable way the carrying capacity of Bantus in the southern tip of Africa would be what it is today without the Dutch and English. We've already seen this play out in Zimbabwe--sub-Saharan Africans can't manage modern farms. The same thing is happening in South Africa now.

Tashkent,

Indeed. One of Pat Buchanan's putatively most 'controversial' books is The Unnecessary War, where he questions American orthodoxy on the idea that it was a prudent thing to have become involved in.

Feryl,

East Asians are prudent enough to see what has worked for the West (market forces) and what has not (egalitarian nonsense), and are acting accordingly. Best bet for the name of the current century: The Chinese Century, of course.

Corvinus said...

"The Bantus did most of the conquering, and there is no conceivable way the carrying capacity of Bantus in the southern tip of Africa would be what it is today without the Dutch and English."

We don't know the carrying capacity of Bantus alone. Do you really believe they wanted to be enslaved just to receive western benefits, compliments of the Dutch and the English?

"We've already seen this play out in Zimbabwe--sub-Saharan Africans can't manage modern farms. The same thing is happening in South Africa now."

It is you that have little clue about conditions there. The contrast could not be starker. White farmers--characterized as being resistant to reform--admit that smaller black farms are simply not viable given the harsh terrain, and acknowledge that black farmers generally come from poor backgrounds and lack the resources to ensure their land is productive. One needs proper context here.

https://www.voanews.com/a/black-farmers-in-south-africa-still-struggling-with-land-reform/1535152.html

Feryl said...

"East Asians are prudent enough to see what has worked for the West (market forces) and what has not (egalitarian nonsense), and are acting accordingly. Best bet for the name of the current century: The Chinese Century, of course. "

The Chinese have also stupidly ripped off a lot of things that Anglo Civ pioneered, for better or for worse. The jab that Asians steal white ideas and then executed them quicker and often cheaper is often true. Many old cities and towns in China have been demolished and replaced with parking lots, highways, and high rises. In addition to the loss of culture and tradition, this also makes your populace dependent on ready access to cars and oil. And of course the industrial revolution's negative drawbacks are still felt heavily in joyless and conformist drone land China, whereas the Japanese are closer to the Northern European norm of respecting nature.

James Howard Kunstler as early as 2005 wrote that we badly underestimate the potential for trouble caused by Asians, the Chinese in particular. He wrote that Chinese war and/or pirate ships making incursions into the Anglo Pacific (including raids on the US West Coast) is not terribly far fetched, esp. if either the US and/or China hit an economic ice berg....Or if China walks away from the godless US heathens and sidles up to now traditionalist Russia. JHK has called China a basket case before. They embrace things, good and ill, at lightning speed. And they suffer from tremendous group think, due to the aforementioned Han distaste for sticking out. The Japanese aren't perfect but are probably the "best" group to come out of the East.

At the moment the US is superficially number one, but things can change in a hurry. At the moment the US's military arsenal, intelligence breadth, massive consumer market, access to oil, and well, nukes, explain the reluctance of any "foreign power" to confront America. But at a certain point, maybe not in our lifetimes, economic/geo-political instability will rear it's head and things will get shaken up. Esp. considering that America and China are still fully committed to growth for growth's sake, rather than doing what's in everyone's long term interest (careful stewardship of precious resources).

It's also interesting that the Western Left's distate for white conservatives (POC of all stripes get a pass) is causing friction. Victoria Nuland and other over-paid/under-qualified inheritors of the West's legacy use boutique Left issues (like gay rights) to disparage Slavs, as if mild indicators of a traditional society should serve as a pretext for harassing sovereign nations. Of course, many Western elites are obsessed with stamping out any revival of white cultural conservatism, owing to the delusion that any such revival will bring about another third reich. That the US itself (and it's allies) have succumbed to Nazi-style atrocities, senselessly interfering with the affairs of numerous entities, often killing and torturing people in the process, doesn't matter because (just like Joey Stalin) we at least had the right idea.