Friday, May 08, 2009

Black (Asian) men most (least) likely to cheat, least (most) likely to marry

++Addition++In the comments, N/A, who runs Race/History/Evolution Notes, sets me straight on my unsubstantiated presumption that black male-white female relationships are the most common among interracial couples in the US. Note to self: Look at the data before spouting off, dumbass. You'd think, given the content here, I'd have already internalized as much.

---

In a recent post, I claimed that married black men are more likely to be philanderers than men of other groups are. Better to present the evidence backing that claim later than never. The following table shows, by race, the percentage of men who have cheated on their wives as well as their marriage rates from the US Census for each (excluding Native Americans, for which I could not find data) among those 15 years of age and older. Those who have never been married are excluded from the cheating figure. For ease of comparison, the monogamy index column shows the percentage of men who are married subtracted by the percentage of married men who have cheated:


RaceCheatedNMarriedMonogamy
White20.0%257558.4%38.4
Black32.5%26838.5%6.0
Hispanic21.6%10252.1%30.5
Asian*17.7%9662.2%44.5
Nat. Am.19.4%31N/AN/A


Among non-blacks, one in five men are unfaithful. Among black men, it jumps to one in three. This despite the plausible presumption that because marriage rates among black men are lower than they are for other men, the quality of the relationships among the black minority that is married should be higher than it is for non-blacks. That is not the case, however.

This follows the pattern Rushton details in Race, Evolution, and Behavior--Asian men are the most likely to be married and least likely to cheat, white men are the next most likely to be married and second least likely to cheat, followed by Hispanics (not covered by Rushton), and then black men, who are the least likely to marry and the most likely to cheat when they do.

Tying this into the post from which it originated, blacks have the most game. They get the most women and are the least likely to suffer from the oneitis frequently afflicting betas. Herbs**, as Roissy calls them, are most common among Asians and least common among blacks.

GSS variables used: EVSTRAY(1-2), RACECEN1, SEX(1)

* Includes Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Filipino, Korean, Vietnamese, and "other Asian".

** A term which, appropriately enough, has acquired some street slang status via white rap duo 7L and Esoteric.

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

I cannot escape the feeling that the author and Roissy fundamentally view females as just a bunch of vaginas for men to compete with other men over in order to fuck.

However, it seems likely to me that:

1. Male and female behavior evolves in tandem and responds to salient behavioral features of the other sex.

2. Females have enormous evolutionary pressure to select the best available sperm (ie, genes) for their offspring, since, certainly among blacks, they are going to be investing more resources and effort into those offspring.

If black males are more likely to be unfaithful, perhaps that reflects the reality that in their ancestral environment male input was less needed in raising offspring and that their likelihood of being cuckolded was higher that other groups.

A small increase in trust is likely to yield high dividends for all concerned.

Blode0322 said...

Call me a doofus, but how do you pronounce herb? My first that was "erb" (these guys are pretty lil shrubs) and then it was "herb" (these guys have old-fashioned unmanly names).

Anonymous said...

Given that many black men have taken themselves out of the sexual competition marketplace through incarceration, death, and "down-lowness", there are far fewer appropriate black men for the same age-appropriate black women. Thus there are far fewer reasons for a black man to stop playing the field, and far more opportunities for him to cheat if he does step off the field briefly. Other men, having more competition, must pin down there women earlier, and have less opportunities to stray.

Anonymous said...

"If black males are more likely to be unfaithful, perhaps that reflects the reality that in their ancestral environment male input was less needed in raising offspring and that their likelihood of being cuckolded was higher that other groups."

And in the current environment, productive whites pay for this.

Audacious Epigone said...

Anon,

I'm a skeptic of the game phenomenon--not the attributes it strives to have people emulate, as they are clearly beneficial in terms of increasing the objective level of attractiveness in the eyes of women, but the magnitude of the gain, separating it from a simple increase in volume, and the overall utility to society, which I find could conceivably quite easily be negative.

Re: paternal investment, Rushton explains this by arguing that blacks have more of an "r" strategy of reproduction than whites (in the middle) or Asians do (most "K" strategy).

Blode,

You pronounce the "H". Phonetically, it's "hurb".

Anon,

Supply and demand matters. But the qualities that make black men the most 'alpha' (and thus the most successful at game) are also the qualities most likely to remove them from the playing field, so it doesn't strike me as a free-standing explanation.

Also, the Asian male:female ratio (93.5) is more favorable for men than the white male:female ratio (95.7). Because of self-selection in immigration, Hispanics have it the worst, at 105.9, yet along the line of thought you suggest, they act as though they are in the second best position as far as S&D is concerned.

And whites and Asians wait longer to pin down their women than blacks do.

S said...

I'm really curious what these numbers are like in other countries. In East Asia, Asian men *certainly* cheat at a rate higher than 1-in-5. I've heard that West Africa has a culture of accepting multiple long-term partners, and being "loyal" among those 2-3 partners.

n/a said...

"blacks have the most game"

"the qualities that make black men the most 'alpha' (and thus the most successful at game) are also the qualities most likely to remove them from the playing field"

I can agree on this much: Blacks make the most attempts and have the lowest standards. But what you've written above is nerdy supposition resting on several flawed premises. I would expect this from "agnostic", not you.

Audacious Epigone said...

S,

The WVS probably has a question that addresses this. Unfortunately, the WVS questions are almost all ethical/opinion-seeking in nature rather than being behavioral (Thus, "Is cheating wrong?" vs "Have you cheated before").

N/A,

Again, we're going theoretical because of the lack of empirical data one way or the other, but taking into account things like intelligence, income, and educational attainment, it's my experience that black men tend to do better than non-black men in how high up the scale they are able to reach, and also how frequently they are able to do so. Virtually all the black guys I know are lower on all three of the attributes mentioned above, but they tend to overcome these 'handicaps' impressively. Feel free to set me straight where I'm wrong.

Anonymous said...

I give lots of weight to the male to female ratio argument, as expressed by the other Anon and further explained in the book "The Logic of Life".

Black guys are scarce; they can pretty much do whatever they want if they're not mentally retarded or incredibly ugly.

I think this logic has been shown to apply on the macro scales where countries have fewer males than females generally. Women in those countries resort to screwing men much faster and allow men to run the short-term "cad" strategy as opposed the the "dad" strategy. I believe Russia is an example. This was in the EP literature somewhere. I only skimmed it years ago. Sorry for being short on details.

Audacious Epigone said...

Anon,

Maybe, but there are some serious exceptions. As said, the Hispanic ratio is more male-heavy than it is for whites, and for whites it's more heavy than it is for Asians. So of the four major racial/ethnic groups, only blacks follow the purported trend.

China and India have the same gender ratio (1.06m:1.00f), but their fertility patterns are much different.

Anonymous said...

Audacious Epigone, perhaps we need to add one more element to the picture.

So we have the sex-ratio disparity.

But there is something unique about the black situation: nobody picks up the ball and runs with the extra black females out there. With any other group -- hispanic, white, Asian -- men will step up and marry these women.

Black women, however, are like the Asian male -- quite possibly the least desirable from the opposite sex's POV (all races).

Part of this was pointed out by Tim Harford in a talk he gave. Although he said "black women aren't settling... [for whites or any other race]" as a PC way of making it sound like they could marry anyone they wanted, but don't, lol. Sure.

The example where the ratio is significantly asymmetric is in New Mexico (I forget the numbers). Maybe you could check into it.

The point is, black women are more desperate, imo, than other groups of women who may suffer the ratio problem because nobody is willing to step up in the absense of enough black males.

So they may be more accepting of cad-like behavior. They're left with no choice. Abstinence? No male attention? Puulease! *Snaps fingers in Z-like formation*

n/a said...

AE,

(1) I don't accept "game" and "alphaness" as valid constructs.

(2) Your dismissal of Anonymous's point regarding sex ratios is unconvincing. Research supports Anonymous:

we find strong and consistent evidence that women have been affected by
rising incarceration precisely as the standard marriage market model would imply. Higher
male imprisonment has lowered the likelihood that women marry, and reduced the
quality of their spouses when they do, and caused a shift in the gains from marriage away
from women and towards men.

(3) Women's preferences in men vary -- among individuals and between races. To compare male attractiveness, we have to specify which females we're talking about. There's no question black women prefer black men over white men and white women prefer white men over black men. As you've pointed out: "Women rate physical appearance as the most important attribute in determining what attracts them to men." Race is rather salient in determining physical appearance.

(4) "Black guys have the most game. They consistently outscore other groups in perceptions of self-confidence, have higher levels of assertiveness"

I seem to recall blacks's self-esteem rose relative to whites's from the 1950s onward, reflecting outside influences.

Even supposing such differences are innate and immutable: how large are the differences, and what makes you think white women and black women prefer identical levels of these traits in men?

Regardless, I believe you're mostly right here, and any advantage black men have mostly comes down to this.

"higher levels of testosterone (which is presumably correlated to most 'alpha' qualities)."

Large, representative U.S. samples show little or no black-white difference in serum testosterone. Africans in Africa have markedly lower circulating testosterone levels compared to Westerners.

"They have more sexual partners, "

Tells us nothing about attractiveness without controlling for many other variables. Additionally, very quickly checking some survey data, it appears that despite reporting more sexual partners, black men report having sex less frequently than white men.

"are more likely to cheat, and are far less likely to stay with the mother of their children than other men are"

Tells us nothing about attractiveness.

Audacious Epigone said...

Anon,

I'd have the same reaction re: black women passing up non-black men vs. not being able to get them. However, this post from Steve (via John Tierney) suggests that black women do strongly prefer black men over non-black men (at least among those in college).

N/A,

But black male-white female is the most common interracial pairing in the US, so black guys do pretty well given that white women (apparently like every other female group except for Asians) have a stated preference for men of their own race going in. The measure of game is how well one is able to hook up given all the 'natural' handicaps (like race/physical appearance, income, intelligence, SES, education, height, etc). The only point to be 'conceded' for me to be right (and I'm only speculating) is that black men have more confidence and a higher self-appraisal given their actual situation than non-black men do, because that's the only real measure of game--that their racial characteristics (and no doubt there's a big gap between 50 Cent black and Usher black in terms of objective attractiveness in the eyes of white women) are a handicap should be factored in ahead of time and should have no impact on the evaluation of their level of game.

It's not an area I'm too familiar with, so will you point me to some research on black men having less sex than white men--I've always read it goes black (most)->white->Asian (least). I've read studies showing up to 10% higher testosterone levels in blacks to no difference between blacks and whites (Rushton settles on 4%, but I'm not sure how he arrives at this). Links would be helpful here as well.

Cheating and belt notch counts do not necessarily mean more 'quality'--it could just mean lots of sub-5s I guess, which on the flip would imply that fugly women disproportionately have sex with black guys. Plausible.

Anonymous said...

"However, this post from Steve (via John Tierney) suggests that black women do strongly prefer black men over non-black men (at least among those in college)."

This doesn't address men being attracted to them, esp to have them as girlfriend or marry.

Getting laid from speed dating is probably different. You're going to want to maximize your odds of getting some tail (but not necessarily get serious with) by excluding no one.

Moreover, even if black women were stubborn in refusing anyone other than black men, that adds to the competitive nature that allows black men to do whatever they want. So it doesn't matter the direction of exclusion -- black women not wanting anything else or anything else wanting black women; either way, same effect re: black men.

n/a said...

"this post from Steve (via John Tierney) suggests that black women do strongly prefer black men over non-black men "

From my link: "White men with stated racial preferences, in contrast, only prefer not to date one group at levels above 90%: black women."

"black male-white female is the most common interracial pairing "

No. That would be white-hispanic (both variations), followed by white male-asian female. And on a population-adjusted basis white women are actually more likely to marry asian males than black.

Regarding the experiment discussed by Tierney: as the researchers note, the participants "self-selected into participation in a multi-cultural Speed Dating event"; the black and white samples are not necessarily equally representative of their respective populations: college-educated black women have notoriously dim dating/marriage prospects and it strikes me as quite plausible a broader cross-section of this group would be willing to participate in such an event (for a shot at the black males taking part, if for no other reason).

"black guys do pretty well given that white women [. . .] game is how well one is able to hook up given all the 'natural' handicaps (like race/physical appearance, income, intelligence, SES, education, height, etc)."

No. Black men who marry white women are significantly better-educated than the women they marry. One paper showed that judges asked to rate the appearances of bm-wf interracial couples gave the black males significantly higher ratings than the white females they were involved with. Black men who want to trade up in race have to trade down in looks/education. White women who have sex with black men are less desirable in pretty much every imaginable way.

"The only point to be 'conceded' for me to be right (and I'm only speculating) is that black men have more confidence and a higher self-appraisal given their actual situation than non-black men do, because that's the only real measure of game"

If that's all you mean by "game", then stop calling it "game". In common negro parlance, "game" refers more specifically to the words that come out of one's mouth when trying to pick up women. I've seen agnostic credit black men with being particularly smooth here, and you seemed to be doing the same. As somoeone who has actually observed ghetto black men's interactions with women, I find this assertion comical.

"It's not an area I'm too familiar with, so will you point me to some research on black men having less sex than white men"

I looked at data from the National Health and Social Life Survey -- specifically, a question asking how long ago the respondent last had sex.

Incidentally, both NLSY97 (data freely downloadable here) and ADDHEALTH contain data on sexual partners in addition to information on criminality and many, many other variables with which you could actually test some of your speculation.

On testosterone: I'll put together a summary later.

Audacious Epigone said...

N/A,

I was wrong about black men-white women pairing. White male-Asian female is more common. Of course, the smaller the available pool of one's own race is, the more that is to be expected. Links for white-Hispanic pairings? I can't find anything.

Sure the white women black men marry are going to be below white women who marry white men. That remains even when black status is controlled for?

Do you think, then, that blacks, when matched on all relevant social attributes, are only relatively less verbally adept when hitting on women? I'm under the impression that when matched for IQ, blacks tend to be strong speakers.

Re: sex frequency, that is not what the GSS shows. Married blacks report having sex 1/5 a SD more frequently on average than married whites do (when matched for age, 1/4 when not). The pattern is almost identical among unmarried, with the black advantage a little bit wider (GSS variables: SEXFREQ, RACE or RACECEN1, MARITAL(1), AGE(whatever--it's pretty consistent))

n/a said...

"Links for white-Hispanic pairings?"

See, for example, Appendix figure 1 here. These numbers are specifically for the four cities mentioned, but the basic trend is the same at the national level:

Table 2. Hispanic Origin and Race of Opposite-Sex Unmarried-Partner Households for the United States: 2000
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t19/tab02.pdf

Table 1. Hispanic Origin and Race of Wife and Husband in Married-Couple Households for the United States: 2000
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t19/tab01.pdf


"That remains even when black status is controlled for?"

Try thinking this one all the way through.

"I'm under the impression that when matched for IQ, blacks tend to be strong speakers."

First, why would you want to control for IQ? Why not control for personality variables while we're at it?

Second, it depends on what you mean by "strong speaker". The words may come out freely, but generally they don't quite make sense. With women of similar intelligence, this probably matters little. But I think your typical RPG player would probably do about as well with women if he bothered to talk to them and had realistic expectations.

"that is not what the GSS shows."

Ok, but I wonder if self-reports from blacks and whites are equally accurate. If we believe survey data, black teenagers hardly ever use drugs. I think a question asking the last time one had sex will probably produce results that can be more meaningfully compared across races.

On testosterone:

In Africans.

Serum Estrogen, But Not Testosterone, Levels Differ between Black and White Men in a Nationally Representative Sample of Americans. Black men have higher estrogen levels.

Serum androgen levels in black, Hispanic, and white men.

Steroid Hormones during Puberty: Racial (Black-White) Differences in Androstenedione and Estradiol-The Bogalusa Heart Study: "testosterone did not exhibit any racial differences. Estradiol showed a significantly higher level among black males compared to white males (P 5 0.05) whereas androstenedione was significantly higher in both white males (P = 0.0001) and females (P I 0.01) compared with blacks."

No significant difference in mean fundamental vocal frequencies of black and white menIn support of black-white differences: a 1985 study using a small number of Los Angeles college students; a larger 1992 study on Vietnam vets, which found a much smaller (3%) difference.

A possible explanation for any differences which may exist. (One would also want to control for diet, physical activity, and so on.)

More on elevated estrogen levels in black men.

The only study of its kind found "American blacks had less heavy testes than American whites".

Audacious Epigone said...

N/A,

I appreciate the links immensely. Obviously this isn't something I've looked into. It's embarrassing that I spouted off presumptions nonetheless, especially given the nature of this blog. Thanks for setting me straight regarding interracial cohabitation/marriage. Interesting that nearly 7% of white men with a stated racial preference in the online dating study exclude whites only. Wouldn't have expected that.

Re: thinking the question through, I didn't just mean post-marital SES status, but all relevant social factors.

Anonymous said...

Asians, whites, and Hispanics seem close enough to me. The big difference is between blacks and non-blacks

Anonymous said...

The first rule of science and analysis of data is that there has to be some kind of control for it to have any usefulness. You can't compare oranges in a bowl to peaches on a tree. Look into that.

Anonymous said...

I feel like most black men cheat and go out side their race too damn much. I don't what their problem is, thats jus my opinion from my experience I'm 32 black/whit female every black man I dated cheated on me accept one & that was til I trun 31 yrs. Damn I had to wait that long for a faithful black man! But I did date spanish or black/spanish and guess what they was Faithful....

Anonymous said...

"black male-white female is the most common interracial pairing "

No. That would be white-hispanic (both variations), followed by white male-asian female. And on a population-adjusted basis white women are actually more likely to marry asian males than black.

White- hispanic couples are a very common pairing, but white and hispanic are not considered interracial. There are only three races which are white, black, and asian.

Audacious Epigone said...

Anon,

Yes, the Hispanic designation is intentionally suboptimal. "Amerindian" or something similar would be more informative.

Re: my error about racial pairings, n/a pointed that out several months ago (see the post's update). I regret the error.

Anonymous said...

This data matches what I found when I went to the "CFDC" website. I plugged in data to calculate the percentage of herpes or chlamydia across cultures. African Americans were off the charts with the highest disease rates. Asian culture was the LOWEST !!!!. So that also implies that Asian culture is least likely to be promiscuous.

Sir Joshua said...

I'd love to see where you obtained your data. You polled over 2,000 occidentals and a little over 200 blacks and dared to compare the cheating percentages. Your data is horribly off and biased. I'd recheck it and then back it up with a references tab.
-再见!
-Sir Joshua 忠

Black Asian said...

Great Article…this blog is nice and very informative.

Anonymous said...

Well honestly i think that if he does anymore research he's going to find out that there is more cheating then he thinks. Black males are bad news bears anyway, they are far more likely to cause crimes and do illegal things then any other race. And most say oh I sell drugs and rob people that work hard for the stuff they have, so that they can live good. It's called get up and get a real job stop taking the easy way out. Also blacks have the highest drop out percentage then any other race. They are to worried about how they dress or how people see their image. Like cars and what not, iv seen A LOT of black guys that have nice cars with nice rims but live in houses that couldn't pass off as a old barns. And don't start me on the whole welfare thing, I mean I'm not racists because there is bad whites out there to but far more less then blacks. You don't like it then change be one that isn't a statistic!

Anonymous said...

Blacks could just be more honest when asked if they cheat. Not sold on data from surveys. EVERYBODY LIES

Anonymous said...

hmmm i wish this was not true as i'm dating a black man but i think black men n their large package is desired by all ethnicity.so they have a larger pool of women to cheat with.
once you go black u never go back ;)

Anonymous said...

In psych yesterday we had a lecture on relationships and love. I found it interesting that she talked about the way men are more likely to cheat and women wanting to be loved and nurtured stems back to evolution and primates. Male gorillas wanted their genes carried on so would sleep with whomever they could. If blacks are more likely to cheat...are they more closely related to primates? are their facial features MORE than just a coincidence? very interesting.....and something to think about...not being racist, just throwing facts and points from a lecture out there....

Anonymous said...

In general,- black men have more sex than white, asian and latina men. It is also very easy for black men to get women from all races, exept asian females. So in is nat strange than black men not are faithful.
For white guys it is more difficult to get women, exept asian females and latinas.